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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 22:23:38 GMT
If that is true I would be delighted.
I guess you still need to be guarded but I reckon the slim majority is the worst case at present.
Well I am off to bed because up at 6am and I ain't prepared to lose sleep over it.
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Dec 12, 2019 22:47:27 GMT
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Post by southsideblue on Dec 12, 2019 22:47:27 GMT
It's a good job they don't do exit polls before Carling Cup finals , eh ?
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Post by expatjohn on Dec 13, 2019 2:11:01 GMT
Good bye Jeremy....off to the back benches and anonimity.
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Dec 13, 2019 2:37:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 2:37:54 GMT
Newton Abbott conservative hold Only put that out for Will
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Dec 13, 2019 9:20:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 9:20:22 GMT
Brilliant result the electorate ain’t stupid and Everyone can’t be wrong about spotting what a loathsome man Corbyn is.
I don’t think Boris is a great person but in a trust race he still wins.
We will never know these people on a personal level do you judge the actions, what people say and more importantly the company they keep!!!
Seeing Swinson, Grieve and Soubry getting beat is the bonus.
In 2016 we spoke and the political class ignored us. Over time it was only the Tories clever enough to understand how they could extend their time in government. Libdems under Swinson totally abused us and labour sat on their hands and cock blocked every step only to cause people to feel that the Tories were incapable of carrying out that will when in reality it was the numbers in the house that prevented it.
Well now even if it’s not a great brexit it’s happening and we can all go back to occasionally dipping our toes into what these people do.
They said many years ago thatcher was responsible for new labour. Boris will be responsible for the next generation of labour in a few years a Labour Party not a Jew hating immigration hugging party that only appeals to students and kids!!!!
When labour get a credible socialist leader not an extreme socialist they may well rise again. I will never be top 5% I accept that the rich should pay good tax but if they pay half the bill then like it or not if you take the piss these people will either leave or find ways not to pay it. People also have to remember over half these tax payers don’t even use the free NHS or schools.
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 13, 2019 12:48:42 GMT
Brilliant result the electorate ain’t stupid and Everyone can’t be wrong about spotting what a loathsome man Corbyn is. I don’t think Boris is a great person but in a trust race he still wins. We will never know these people on a personal level do you judge the actions, what people say and more importantly the company they keep!!! Seeing Swinson, Grieve and Soubry getting beat is the bonus. In 2016 we spoke and the political class ignored us. Over time it was only the Tories clever enough to understand how they could extend their time in government. Libdems under Swinson totally abused us and labour sat on their hands and cock blocked every step only to cause people to feel that the Tories were incapable of carrying out that will when in reality it was the numbers in the house that prevented it. Well now even if it’s not a great brexit it’s happening and we can all go back to occasionally dipping our toes into what these people do. They said many years ago thatcher was responsible for new labour. Boris will be responsible for the next generation of labour in a few years a Labour Party not a Jew hating immigration hugging party that only appeals to students and kids!!!! When labour get a credible socialist leader not an extreme socialist they may well rise again. I will never be top 5% I accept that the rich should pay good tax but if they pay half the bill then like it or not if you take the piss these people will either leave or find ways not to pay it. People also have to remember over half these tax payers don’t even use the free NHS or schools. Pretty decent grasp of the situation. Hopefully Labour will get it's act together and abandon its SJW, politically correct, jealous, minority this, diversity that, importing half the world makes things better - for the few not the many, really. And then start playing the ball, as oppose to the man, and maybe we'd be in a spoiled for choice situation, as opposed to choosing the least worse.
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Post by Bluenose_68 on Dec 13, 2019 14:51:20 GMT
Agree where labour lost the plot was 3 fold for me
1) Brexit- having an ambiguous neutral stance really didnt punch against something so brilliantly simple as "get brexit done". They should have either come out hard and gone remain and into an alliance with the dems and the greens or gone heavy on brexit.
2) for the many not the few- its a weird one but i think alot of people would consider themselves to be getting by rather than struggling- even if they are. Which means the natural emotion is "well great they are going to tax me now". Considering they are supposed to represent the workforce way too little was done to resonate with tradesmen who have felt threatened by cheap labour...people who work in offices under constant threat of redundancy...retail workers worried about the loss of the high street etc etc. Sure focus on zero hour contracts but do stuff to resonate with a majority of people who feel under threat
3) The leader- Corbyn was too controversial. yes im sure if you are a die hard momentum member he must be awesome- but he was way too divisive and terrible under scrutiny. In the same way if you appoint Steve cotterill (and to a degree Clotet) from day 1 you have a large chunk of people who dislike them- which makes it very hard to be unified especially under pressure
As someone who detests the tories its a bad day. However i do accept having a party with a good majority does have its upsides. Brexit is theirs to own now. No more excuses no more fudging. They have no option but to sort it- otherwise all the people who held their nose yesterday will disappear next time around
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Dec 13, 2019 15:11:49 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:11:49 GMT
Putting it mildly at present if you are trying to entice most working class or let’s say minimum wage people to vote labour what can you offer them???
If you on minimum wage life is pretty shit and no amount of quick doctors queues or better schools will cut it and deep down unless labour say £16 per hour minimum wage then they ain’t really solving your problems. Most low earners can’t afford to lose time from work as you know most employers run a tight ship so if you off too much you don’t get paid. These people tend to get by and not go to doctors. My flat mate security guard don’t earn well unless loads of hours worked. True socialist ain’t been docs or dentist twenty years and wears it like a badge of honour.
Sadly most low earners move up soon enough and just like most people when you earn more you move into the realm of pull the ladder up jack and fcuk the rest.
Then really it’s about sweating the small stuff like interest rates, tax levels and public services if you have kids.
I know how they measure poverty but that’s loose statistically mental maths which in my opinion may say 14 million in poverty but I think you would notice if a quarter of people were in poverty. Even now only about 600,000 use food banks but from my days working in benefits and still knowing people who do you will find plenty of these people just don’t budget well and still use them to create enough money for alcohol and their luxuries.
In recent times with modern tech you have households with 3 kids over 10 years old and they will have about 4 mobiles plus sky plus internet.
My current role is stripping down peoples financial statements and fending off IVAs and these LUXURIES are the things that bite.
When I was a young parent our outgoings were utilities rent council tax and food.
Now it’s
Sky Phones Pets Holidays
I could go on but it’s essentially people spending beyond what benefits are actually for. People assume they are entitled for the state to pay for the technology. Although I would say you suck up internet now as it’s hard to get by with applying for benefit without it.
I am lucky don’t earn fantastic wages, worked in debt, been on benefit lots of times and worked in benefits too so I see it from all sides.
Check the SFS guidelines or governments trigger figures to see what you can class as legitimate outgoings and you can see why these people need food banks
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 13, 2019 15:44:02 GMT
Putting it mildly at present if you are trying to entice most working class or let’s say minimum wage people to vote labour what can you offer them??? If you on minimum wage life is pretty shit and no amount of quick doctors queues or better schools will cut it and deep down unless labour say £16 per hour minimum wage then they ain’t really solving your problems. Most low earners can’t afford to lose time from work as you know most employers run a tight ship so if you off too much you don’t get paid. These people tend to get by and not go to doctors. My flat mate security guard don’t earn well unless loads of hours worked. True socialist ain’t been docs or dentist twenty years and wears it like a badge of honour. Sadly most low earners move up soon enough and just like most people when you earn more you move into the realm of pull the ladder up jack and fcuk the rest. Then really it’s about sweating the small stuff like interest rates, tax levels and public services if you have kids. I know how they measure poverty but that’s loose statistically mental maths which in my opinion may say 14 million in poverty but I think you would notice if a quarter of people were in poverty. Even now only about 600,000 use food banks but from my days working in benefits and still knowing people who do you will find plenty of these people just don’t budget well and still use them to create enough money for alcohol and their luxuries. In recent times with modern tech you have households with 3 kids over 10 years old and they will have about 4 mobiles plus sky plus internet. My current role is stripping down peoples financial statements and fending off IVAs and these LUXURIES are the things that bite. When I was a young parent our outgoings were utilities rent council tax and food. Now it’s Sky Phones Pets Holidays I could go on but it’s essentially people spending beyond what benefits are actually for. People assume they are entitled for the state to pay for the technology. Although I would say you suck up internet now as it’s hard to get by with applying for benefit without it. I am lucky don’t earn fantastic wages, worked in debt, been on benefit lots of times and worked in benefits too so I see it from all sides. Check the SFS guidelines or governments trigger figures to see what you can class as legitimate outgoings and you can see why these people need food banks Workers are in competition with other workers, which suppresses wages. Employers are in competition with other employers (and the benefit system sadly) which pushes wages up. There doesn't have to be much of an imbalance, to screw things up. It will be the most an employer can afford, to get the last worker, or the least the most desperate worker will accept, to undercut other workers. Importing loads of workers is not going to help workers. I think what you mean is, if you define living in poverty as having less than 60 per cent of median income, then it doesn't matter what the median income is, there will always be poor by definition.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 19:13:35 GMT
Yeah spot on.
Most lower class, working class and some middle class folk suspect that immigration enables governments to suppress rising salaries. My biggest beef is a lot of immigration ends up in unskilled low end of the market jobs and the downside is that our school leavers looking for that first step on the ladder are met with these starter jobs not being there.
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Dec 13, 2019 19:52:27 GMT
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Post by Bluenose_68 on Dec 13, 2019 19:52:27 GMT
Yeah spot on. Most lower class, working class and some middle class folk suspect that immigration enables governments to suppress rising salaries. My biggest beef is a lot of immigration ends up in unskilled low end of the market jobs and the downside is that our school leavers looking for that first step on the ladder are met with these starter jobs not being there. There’s some truth in that statement The problem is gonna come when the tories won’t give a fcuk about sorting the lower income trap out Immigration helps them in two ways. 1) they can fuel cheap labour. 2) they can use it to scare people into voting for them You think the tories would bother sorting the root causes out like proper education and skilling or workers No fookin chance
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 13, 2019 20:37:54 GMT
Yeah spot on. Most lower class, working class and some middle class folk suspect that immigration enables governments to suppress rising salaries. My biggest beef is a lot of immigration ends up in unskilled low end of the market jobs and the downside is that our school leavers looking for that first step on the ladder are met with these starter jobs not being there. There’s some truth in that statement The problem is gonna come when the tories won’t give a fcuk about sorting the lower income trap out Immigration helps them in two ways. 1) they can fuel cheap labour. 2) they can use it to scare people into voting for them You think the tories would bother sorting the root causes out like proper education and skilling or workers No fookin chance I'd start off by saying I think the Conservatives have done terribly. So please don't think I've been under any illusions regarding their Brexit stance, immigration stance or balancing the books stance. I come from a view of it could have been worse stance - Labour. Immigration pretty much guarantees cheap labour, and the suppression of wages. Brilliant if you are an employer of this labour. However, the immigrants tend to vote Labour. There is no question of this. No way do the Conservatives encourage immigration to scare voters. Labour, if you remember, is all for immigration. Now take the Labour proposal of £10 minimum wage, even for 16 year olds. Without the immigration, who is going to train a 16 year old at £10 / hour when he can hire a proven (e.g. carpenter). Now compare a guy from abroad, 35 years old, great carpenter, who thinks £10 / hour is a fortune, and on top of that can claim benefits for his wife and kids (real or not) back home. What 16 year old is getting a look in, then.
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Post by Bluenose_68 on Dec 13, 2019 21:13:55 GMT
The torrid have been in power for the past 6-7 years. They could have put stronger anti immigration controls in if they wanted too
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Post by Bluenose_68 on Dec 13, 2019 21:15:41 GMT
Who benefits from cheap labour. Shareholders and rich people.
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 13, 2019 21:32:00 GMT
The torrid have been in power for the past 6-7 years. They could have put stronger anti immigration controls in if they wanted too From the rest of the world yes. From the EU, no. Like you I heard Mr Cameron saying he'd limit it to tens of thousands. Where do we start ? No he couldn't because it's against EU law. That's EU LAW which is sovereign to UK law. Hopefully not for much longer. From outside of the EU, not a good effort. In any case, why limit it anyway ? People bringing in money, talent, or entertainment British people are willing to pay for. Why limit that ? Hopefully Boris will get to grips with it. I wouldn't bet on it.
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 13, 2019 21:38:44 GMT
Who benefits from cheap labour. Shareholders and rich people. And a party who gets their votes, and (though they seem to be waking up) a voter base who is kept relatively poor, yet has a mindset that Labour is for the workers. Think how much money would be donated to Oxfam, if they were not needed. It would be a disaster for Oxfam. (Also, look up charity workers job vacancies, and see their wages). Incidentally, I believe you've posted a few times as a guest. Why not sign up ? My view is a forum is for discussion, exchanging information, and for different views which some may not have otherwise considered. I think you should.
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Dec 13, 2019 22:53:20 GMT
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Post by Bluenose_68 on Dec 13, 2019 22:53:20 GMT
Who benefits from cheap labour. Shareholders and rich people. And a party who gets their votes, and (though they seem to be waking up) a voter base who is kept relatively poor, yet has a mindset that Labour is for the workers. Think how much money would be donated to Oxfam, if they were not needed. It would be a disaster for Oxfam. (Also, look up charity workers job vacancies, and see their wages). Incidentally, I believe you've posted a few times as a guest. Why not sign up ? My view is a forum is for discussion, exchanging information, and for different views which some may not have otherwise considered. I think you should. I am already signed up...for some reason my iPhone doesn’t remember me on the site so find it easier to comment as a guest than do the login stuff....sheer laziness on my behalf
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 13, 2019 23:18:42 GMT
Oh good. A kindred spirit. KRO
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Dec 15, 2019 12:14:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 12:14:13 GMT
An excellent point made this am on twitter
Good thread, and importantly points out this phenomenon is not unique to the UK. Town centres in decline - internet shopping a factor, many others. Lack of major employers / employment clusters outside of cities / universities - and decline of car sector will hurt:
There is one overwhelmingly important, interesting and difficult question following Johnson’s triumph. What policies can reverse the decline of towns in the Midlands and the North and improve opportunities and average wages for working people there? 1/
It is not going to be straightforward. The economic forces driving divergence between cities and their peripheries are powerful. It will require substantial public investment in transport and communications infrastructure, 2/
higher public spending on technical education and retraining for people changing jobs, increased investment in local R&D networks and much greater devolution of decision-making over all of the above to local leaders. But will that be enough? 3/
What success stories should they learn from? The decline of towns on the periphery is not unique to the UK. It is happening in France, Germany, Italy and the US. Which governments have grappled with these issues successfully? 4/
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 15, 2019 14:09:37 GMT
The unfortunate reality is, most governments have the exact opposite of money to spend. They can't invest in anything. What they can do, is make other people invest in their latest bright idea, which prevents the people / companies who were successful in making the money, invest it themselves.
I'm a great believer in the government who governs least, governs best.
What they absolutely shouldn't do is import a city load of people every year, which suppresses wages, then throw their hands in air and moan about housing shortage, and underfunded schools and hospitals.
The thick tw4ts.
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Dec 15, 2019 16:01:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2019 16:01:29 GMT
The unfortunate reality is, most governments have the exact opposite of money to spend. They can't invest in anything. What they can do, is make other people invest in their latest bright idea, which prevents the people / companies who were successful in making the money, invest it themselves. I'm a great believer in the government who governs least, governs best. What they absolutely shouldn't do is import a city load of people every year, which suppresses wages, then throw their hands in air and moan about housing shortage, and underfunded schools and hospitals. The thick tw4ts. I disagree with you here. If every immigrant is picking up the jobs they are still paying their taxes and NI and more importantly being part of the multiplier effect on economy- which is generating ££££ that should be being spent on schools hospitals etc My criticism of any government is they never actually make any decisions that affect anything more than the next 1-2 years-ie whilst they are in power. What they should be doing is thinking 3-4 steps ahead of themselves and thinking what our economy and industries will look like in 10-15 years time and start figuring out what to do about automation and robotics which are about 20 times more of a problem than immigrants
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Post by tonyhancock on Dec 15, 2019 16:31:04 GMT
The unfortunate reality is, most governments have the exact opposite of money to spend. They can't invest in anything. What they can do, is make other people invest in their latest bright idea, which prevents the people / companies who were successful in making the money, invest it themselves. I'm a great believer in the government who governs least, governs best. What they absolutely shouldn't do is import a city load of people every year, which suppresses wages, then throw their hands in air and moan about housing shortage, and underfunded schools and hospitals. The thick tw4ts. 1. I disagree with you here. 2. If every immigrant is picking up the jobs they are still paying their taxes and NI and more importantly being part of the multiplier effect on economy- which is generating ££££ that should be being spent on schools hospitals etc 3. My criticism of any government is they never actually make any decisions that affect anything more than the next 1-2 years-ie whilst they are in power. 4. What they should be doing is thinking 3-4 steps ahead of themselves and thinking what our economy and industries will look like in 10-15 years time and start figuring out what to do about automation and robotics which are about 20 times more of a problem than immigrants 1. First class 2. Are they though ? Some of them, sure. Some of them are beneficial. I'd wouldn't limit numbers, just quality. Many are competition for British workers, and some can't speak English, are qualified in nothing more than half heatedly looking after one goat, and their culture is dodgy to say the least. 3. Completely agree. The system is set up to get through up to 5 years, then do some over spending, and hope to get another 5 years. Not set up for long term thinking, and since the 80's, not necessarily in British interests at all. 4. Agreed. It would be nice if machines could do all our work for us, whilst we enjoy ourselves. It won't happen like that, though.
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Dec 16, 2019 9:55:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2019 9:55:37 GMT
Minimum wage income only pays £560 tax per year.
It is not a big contribution if we have plenty of unskilled entrants to the job market.
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Post by Bluenose_68 on Dec 16, 2019 10:39:53 GMT
Youre missing the main point of what i said.....
ie thats not taking into account the effect having those "minimum wages" then being used by that person within our economy for food, clothes, socialising etc etc
As long as people are contributing to taxes and spending within a country then they tend to have a positive effect on the countries economy overall.
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Dec 16, 2019 10:43:23 GMT
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Post by expatjohn on Dec 16, 2019 10:43:23 GMT
The thing is though, many live in groups together, pool resources and send sterling out of the country to support families.
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Dec 16, 2019 11:06:07 GMT
Or some just feck off and live in another country😉
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Dec 16, 2019 11:08:44 GMT
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Post by expatjohn on Dec 16, 2019 11:08:44 GMT
Or some just feck off and live in another country😉 Jealous?
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Dec 16, 2019 11:11:40 GMT
Or some just feck off and live in another country😉 Jealous? The irony😂
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Dec 16, 2019 11:20:37 GMT
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Post by expatjohn on Dec 16, 2019 11:20:37 GMT
I think you are off track, or failed to understand. 😔
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Dec 16, 2019 11:25:02 GMT
I think you are off track, or failed to understand. 😔 Octopus every meal and dictatorship government! NO THANKYOU 😆
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