Can you be sacked on sick leave ?

[Dirty White Slip-on]

Beyond a joke the situation at Blues,  a few more games TM will be on par with Rooney's record at Blues plus a transfer window to ice the cake (completely wasted)

So can you sack a person that is effectively on leave of absence, so not doing the job he is employed to do but handing the reigns of power to Venus

Any employment lawyers on the forum ?

Can't see how you can sack Mowbray protected under laws of employment until he returns from sickness

One thing for sure from this he won't be here next season

[gammo]

You can sack someone (in this case Mowbray) but:

1) it would be illegal,
2) it would be costly (see point 1),
3) it would create so much negativity it would be a huge PR disaster (see point 2).

How ANY of this can be proportioned to TM is amazing. Suggesting he could/should be sacked whilst off sick is total nonsense - we don't/wouldn't do the same to an injured player so why do you think we should do it to a manager?

[Dirty White Slip-on]

Mar 17, 2024 16:55:36 GMT gammo said:

You can sack someone (in this case Mowbray) but:

1) it would be illegal,
2) it would be costly (see point 1),
3) it would create so much negativity it would be a huge PR disaster (see point 2).

How ANY of this can be proportioned to TM is amazing. Suggesting he could/should be sacked whilst off sick is total nonsense - we don't/wouldn't do the same to an injured player so why do you think we should do it to a manager?

1- Anything to back this up gammo  ? Are you in employment law ?

2- Cost isn't an issue to Wagner and co 

3 - Negativity being relegated is the PR disaster, I would say Mowbray being sacked is the cheapest option

 How ANY of this can be proportioned to TM is amazing -  transfer window players bought in and sitting above relegation by 2 goals....... who else do you suggest, from the day he was bought in to the position we sit after the Watford we have improved

[choc]

They can't sack you when you are on the sick. You can't defend yourself. A lawyer would have a field day.

[TILTON]

Anyone taking sick leave then being categorically proven as being dishonest can be sacked.

Thing is you have to prove it.

If it relates to someone then going on holiday it's up for debate because if the holiday taken is to aid relaxation and recovery post op (assuming talking about TM) then it's going to be easy to defend if you're apparently taking the piss.

If it's Sanderson and he's phoned in sick and missed training to go Cheltenham then this is definitely a sacking offence if proven.

A lot of it is does the illness restrict you?

So if I tell my employer I aint coming in due to having the shits as I am confined to using the bog then I am at Cheltenham that's a sacking. If I am off on stress you can say that life still continues. I used to live and work at fiveways, tesco was my corner shop and I often would be seen in tesco when off with a bad back but walking worked and you still gotta eat!

On this subject when I was working for a law firm I had no leave left for Brugge so I called in with a bad back when I was in Calais Even when tickets were on sale I was at work and when I called the club they said they didn't have my passport scanned so I pinched my eyes and went home with a migraine then went to queue for 7 hours at Blues

My contract was almost up so it was a risk worth taking, still dodged central news cameras in the market square though

[Dirty White Slip-on]

Mar 17, 2024 17:09:13 GMT choc said:

They can't sack you when you are on the sick. You can't defend yourself. A lawyer would have a field day.

Venus needs to be sacked and a manager bought in as a coach (to the employment tribunal ) but in reality as a manager...... does this work ?

[choc]

Mar 17, 2024 17:15:51 GMT Dirty White Slip-on said:

Mar 17, 2024 17:09:13 GMT choc said:

They can't sack you when you are on the sick. You can't defend yourself. A lawyer would have a field day.

Venus needs to be sacked and a manager bought in as a coach (to the employment tribunal ) but in reality as a manager...... does this work ?

His defence would be that he wasn't employed as a manager.  He would most likely be quite happy going back to the actual job he was employed to do. Actually sack him. No chance.

[Dirty White Slip-on]

Money talks if this needs to be resolved, it can't go on imo

[choc]

I phoned in sick waiting for my flight to New York to see my favourite band play the Garden. Feck em. They wouldn't bat an eyelid sacking you if it suits them.

[Professor Frink]

If an employer wants you out. You’re done

It’s that simple.

The only variables are how aggressive their HR and legal teams are.

[gammo]

Mar 17, 2024 17:00:28 GMT Dirty White Slip-on said:

Mar 17, 2024 16:55:36 GMT gammo said:

You can sack someone (in this case Mowbray) but:

1) it would be illegal,
2) it would be costly (see point 1),
3) it would create so much negativity it would be a huge PR disaster (see point 2).

How ANY of this can be proportioned to TM is amazing. Suggesting he could/should be sacked whilst off sick is total nonsense - we don't/wouldn't do the same to an injured player so why do you think we should do it to a manager?

1- Anything to back this up gammo  ? Are you in employment law ?



2- Cost isn't an issue to Wagner and co 



3 - Negativity being relegated is the PR disaster, I would say Mowbray being sacked is the cheapest option

 How ANY of this can be proportioned to TM is amazing -  transfer window players bought in and sitting above relegation by 2 goals....... who else do you suggest, from the day he was bought in to the position we sit after the Watford we have improved

1) Am I in employment law? No, but I am a supervisor so know what the laws are that you are bound to adhere to when it comes to staff absence and staff wellbeing.


2) Cost IS an issue as it not just paying off Mowbray. It would also be paying damages to Mowbray and anyone else that feels affected by the crazy decision (whether that be related to Mowbray, within the club or even sponsors).


3) You think that negativity doesn't incur any financial loses? So you'd be happy for all those that have signed up to the project to walk away taking their money with them and perhaps the very existence of our club (that relies/will rely on their money) disappearing with them?

What baffles me is that you honestly think that Mowbray sat in discussions with Wagner and Cook, talking about becoming the next Birmingham City manager, thinking 'I'm going to be too ill in the future to be a manager but I'll sign up anyway' - really? 😳😳

Are you going to be ill next week? I don't expect an answer either way because unless you've already been diagnosed with something, you won't be able to answer. NO-ONE knows what is around the corner for them, so for that fact I don't blame Mowbray for any of the last 6 results as he's not 'been there.' Being there is one thing, telling someone to pass on a message in a certain way is another.

I've no doubt Venus is a good coach but he's no manager and should only have been the 'manager' for a game or two at most. Do I think the recent results would be different if Mowbray was in the dug out? Yes because he's the top man that calls the shots and not an understudy that relays messages - one voice, one direction.

[choc]

I'm no fan of Mowbray but I think it's a combination of things that have put us where we are today including a large chunk of bad luck.
I don't think there are many actually blaming Mowbray for our recent troubles. The only thing I would question is his transfer window performance.

[brightside]

Well I do agree with what you say Gammo. I was a very Senior Manager in a big organisation if we are comparing roles😁. None of that is important now. Normal employment law will be flying well below the contract that TM signed. The lawyers would have made sure that eventualities are covered. As non of this is in the public domain we can only guess. But given that blues have been very quiet about what’s going on I would expect that they know what is happening and what they can do or importantly what they can’t do based on the contract.

Patience is a virtue…………..

[brightside]

Mar 17, 2024 20:42:42 GMT choc said:

I'm no fan of Mowbray but I think it's a combination of things that have put us where we are today including a large chunk of bad luck.
I don't think there are many actually blaming Mowbray for our recent troubles. The only thing I would question is his transfer window performance.

Absolutely 

[gammo]

Mar 17, 2024 20:44:21 GMT brightside said:

Well I do agree with what you say Gammo. I was a very Senior Manager in a big organisation if we are comparing roles😁. None of that is important now. Normal employment law will be flying well below the contract that TM signed. The lawyers would have made sure that eventualities are covered. As non of this is in the public domain we can only guess. But given that blues have been very quiet about what’s going on I would expect that they know what is happening and what they can do or importantly what they can’t do based on the contract.

Patience is a virtue…………..

Yep, exactly. Contracts are personal between the employer and the employee so unless both agree to divulge the T&Cs we'll never know what's included (and rightly so).

I've said on other threads that the ONLY person that knows if he can continue to be the Blues manager is Mowbray and I'd have thought that by now, four weeks after surgery, he'd have a good idea if he'll be fit enough to continue in his role. It's been said before, he doesn't need the money and he sure doesn't need the hassle of being away from his family - something that he's eluded to wishing he hadn't done so much in the past. He comes across as a nice guy, a guy that would be honest enough not to string people along.

[gammo]

Mar 17, 2024 20:42:42 GMT choc said:

I'm no fan of Mowbray but I think it's a combination of things that have put us where we are today including a large chunk of bad luck.
I don't think there are many actually blaming Mowbray for our recent troubles. The only thing I would question is his transfer window performance.

I don't think I've ever seen so much bad luck happen to our club in such a short time (excluding the Eustace and Rooney bits here).

- how many teams have we faced that have got the 'new manager' bounce?
- what were the chances of letting Long go and then the next game we lose 3 centre backs?
- our 'best signing' in the transfer window lasts 45mins on his debut and is then out for a month?

I get that we needed a striker (or two) and perhaps a centre back (although we still had Long at this point) but we all knew that we've got no money so we are looking at the bottom of a barrel for signings. Yes there were a couple of missed good strikers (Sheff Wed springs to mind) but we knew our midfield was powder puff. Getting midfielders in patches your team at both ends so you're just spreading the coverage - it worked for a couple of games but sadly not others.

There's also the factor that we had to move people out before bringing some in. It was made aware that some players refused to move which is what is killing us now because we can't afford to keep them around and bringing in a replacement. 😡😡😡

[royalblue]

I think sacking Tony Mowbray whilst he is on sick leave would be very underhanded; present the club in a very poor light; be a PR disaster for the club and would be extremely surprised if Tom Wagner would have anything to do with such a course of action. I would be very disappointed in him if we did. I suspect that the club is well aware of Tony's health issues and when he is likely to return to work, which the rest of do not. Working on the basis that no news is good news, I am hoping that he is back by the time of the Preston game.
The assumption appears to be that appointing someone else to manage for the remaining games will improve our chances of survival. Of course that might be true but equally it might not. If we do go down, and I fully acknowledge that that is a real risk on current form, then the repercussions for the club will be considerable given the perceived unpopular sacking of JE when we were 6th in the league and the train wreck that was the Wayne Rooney period. Adding the sacking of the highly respected and well thought of Tony Mowbray whilst he was on sick leave into that mix on the gamble that someone new is going to save us is not at all appealing. It would close the first, and nothing short of disastrous first season under Knighthead with both failure and widespread condemnation. It's a firm no from me and that is not taking anything away from those that sincerely believe that making such a controversial decision is necessary to avoid relegation. For better or worse, we have made our bed and will have to lay in it. Relegation whilst painful and embarrassing is something we could and would recover from relatively quickly I believe. Damaging the club's reputation and integrity by being seen to be kicking a man whilst he is down would be rightly viewed as cowardly and despicable behaviour regardless of whether it had the desired effect or not, and in my view would potentially be much more damaging.

[BluenoseB]

Mar 17, 2024 17:15:12 GMT TILTON said:

Anyone taking sick leave then being categorically proven as being dishonest can be sacked.

Thing is you have to prove it.

If it relates to someone then going on holiday it's up for debate because if the holiday taken is to aid relaxation and recovery post op (assuming talking about TM) then it's going to be easy to defend if you're apparently taking the piss.

If it's Sanderson and he's phoned in sick and missed training to go Cheltenham then this is definitely a sacking offence if proven.

A lot of it is does the illness restrict you?

So if I tell my employer I aint coming in due to having the shits as I am confined to using the bog then I am at Cheltenham that's a sacking. If I am off on stress you can say that life still continues. I used to live and work at fiveways, tesco was my corner shop and I often would be seen in tesco when off with a bad back but walking worked and you still gotta eat!

On this subject when I was working for a law firm I had no leave left for Brugge so I called in with a bad back when I was in Calais Even when tickets were on sale I was at work and when I called the club they said they didn't have my passport scanned so I pinched my eyes and went home with a migraine then went to queue for 7 hours at Blues

My contract was almost up so it was a risk worth taking, still dodged central news cameras in the market square though

Did Sanderson do that, also pritchard. Seen a few rumours sayung same. Would explain Sanderson being left on bench.

[choc]

Mar 17, 2024 22:46:43 GMT royalblue said:

I think sacking Tony Mowbray whilst he is on sick leave would be very underhanded; present the club in a very poor light; be a PR disaster for the club and would be extremely surprised if Tom Wagner would have anything to do with such a course of action. I would be very disappointed in him if we did. I suspect that the club is well aware of Tony's health issues and when he is likely to return to work, which the rest of do not. Working on the basis that no news is good news, I am hoping that he is back by the time of the Preston game.
The assumption appears to be that appointing someone else to manage for the remaining games will improve our chances of survival. Of course that might be true but equally it might not. If we do go down, and I fully acknowledge that that is a real risk on current form, then the repercussions for the club will be considerable given the perceived unpopular sacking of JE when we were 6th in the league and the train wreck that was the Wayne Rooney period. Adding the sacking of the highly respected and well thought of Tony Mowbray whilst he was on sick leave into that mix on the gamble that someone new is going to save us is not at all appealing. It would close the first, and nothing short of disastrous first season under Knighthead with both failure and widespread condemnation. It's a firm no from me and that is not taking anything away from those that sincerely believe that making such a controversial decision is necessary to avoid relegation. For better or worse, we have made our bed and will have to lay in it. Relegation whilst painful and embarrassing is something we could and would recover from relatively quickly I believe. Damaging the club's reputation and integrity by being seen to be kicking a man whilst he is down would be rightly viewed as cowardly and despicable behaviour regardless of whether it had the desired effect or not, and in my view would potentially be much more damaging.

First of all, no one will be sacked.

If Mowbray is out for much longer, then doing nothing will be suicide. If we were to bring in an interim manager until the end of the season, but still got relegated, then at least we tried.

The sacking of Eustace was at the time not as unpopular as you think. Had we lost to the Albion nobody would have give a shit. Our 6th spot at the time was false. Ask Reading fans about being sky high in the championship after so few games and how their season panned out. 

The problem with the Rooney period was, apart from Cook,  no one wanted him. So unless he got off to a flyer he was fecked. 

You believe that relegation wouldn't be too bad as recovery will relatively quick.  Best of luck with that. 

[almajir]

Some of the responses on this thread genuinely make me fear for the human race.

It feels like people are so focused on Blues they're willing to eff over one of the nicest people in the game in the hope of bringing in another manager so we don't go down.

Have some compassion for the love of God.

[royalblue]

Mar 18, 2024 9:08:55 GMT choc said:

Mar 17, 2024 22:46:43 GMT royalblue said:

I think sacking Tony Mowbray whilst he is on sick leave would be very underhanded; present the club in a very poor light; be a PR disaster for the club and would be extremely surprised if Tom Wagner would have anything to do with such a course of action. I would be very disappointed in him if we did. I suspect that the club is well aware of Tony's health issues and when he is likely to return to work, which the rest of do not. Working on the basis that no news is good news, I am hoping that he is back by the time of the Preston game.
The assumption appears to be that appointing someone else to manage for the remaining games will improve our chances of survival. Of course that might be true but equally it might not. If we do go down, and I fully acknowledge that that is a real risk on current form, then the repercussions for the club will be considerable given the perceived unpopular sacking of JE when we were 6th in the league and the train wreck that was the Wayne Rooney period. Adding the sacking of the highly respected and well thought of Tony Mowbray whilst he was on sick leave into that mix on the gamble that someone new is going to save us is not at all appealing. It would close the first, and nothing short of disastrous first season under Knighthead with both failure and widespread condemnation. It's a firm no from me and that is not taking anything away from those that sincerely believe that making such a controversial decision is necessary to avoid relegation. For better or worse, we have made our bed and will have to lay in it. Relegation whilst painful and embarrassing is something we could and would recover from relatively quickly I believe. Damaging the club's reputation and integrity by being seen to be kicking a man whilst he is down would be rightly viewed as cowardly and despicable behaviour regardless of whether it had the desired effect or not, and in my view would potentially be much more damaging.

First of all, no one will be sacked.

If Mowbray is out for much longer, then doing nothing will be suicide. If we were to bring in an interim manager until the end of the season, but still got relegated, then at least we tried.

The sacking of Eustace was at the time not as unpopular as you think. Had we lost to the Albion nobody would have give a shit. Our 6th spot at the time was false. Ask Reading fans about being sky high in the championship after so few games and how their season panned out. 

The problem with the Rooney period was, apart from Cook,  no one wanted him. So unless he got off to a flyer he was fecked. 

You believe that relegation wouldn't be too bad as recovery will relatively quick.  Best of luck with that. 

I think you miss my point and conflate me saying that sacking John Eustace as being unpopular as representing the view of all Blues fans. If you read any of my posts on the subject at the time I was saying our position was flattering and the football we were playing nowhere top six standard. My point is that the perception of the club was that we acted rashly in sacking John Eustace when in a play off position and opened us up to the unfavourable comparison with the Rowett/Zola nightmare. Had the club sacked John Eustace after the Norwich game then it might have been a different story, but they didn’t, and it wasn’t. I am tired and weary of countering fans of other clubs telling me how wrong we were to get rid of Eustace who had us in a play off position but they only have, understandably, a very low resolution perception of the football situation. You say that no one wanted Rooney and I agree he was not first choice for many but I, and I think others did want to give him at least a chance once he was here. Unfortunately, there were a great many that did not. The atmosphere at that first home game against Hull was a disgrace in my view with so called Blues fans telling him to F off to his face despicable behaviour. 
You choose to miss quote me by saying that relegation ‘wouldn’t be too bad’ when I said that it would be painful and embarrassing, not least on the back of the Birmingham on the rise again publicly. No, not something we would want but emotion aside it would be recoverable. Other clubs have done it and with our owners so would we. Luton got up last year, Sunderland got to the play offs, Wolves and Leeds went to the Premier League from Division One. 
We are a decent sized club with very ambitious owners and if the worst happens this season we will come back from that and luck will have nothing to do with it. 

[expatjohn]

Mar 17, 2024 16:21:10 GMT Dirty White Slip-on said:

Beyond a joke the situation at Blues,  a few more games TM will be on par with Rooney's record at Blues plus a transfer window to ice the cake (completely wasted)

So can you sack a person that is effectively on leave of absence, so not doing the job he is employed to do but handing the reigns of power to Venus

Any employment lawyers on the forum ?

Can't see how you can sack Mowbray protected under laws of employment until he returns from sickness

One thing for sure from this he won't be here next season

Just re-read your post. I'm unclear as to your point, but are you really claiming Blues should sack TM?

I sincerely hope not!

[Professor Frink]

Mar 18, 2024 9:40:11 GMT almajir said:

Some of the responses on this thread genuinely make me fear for the human race.

It feels like people are so focused on Blues they're willing to eff over one of the nicest people in the game in the hope of bringing in another manager so we don't go down.

Have some compassion for the love of God.

100% this.

If the situation takes us down so be it.   Id rather our club do the right thing by someone who is unwell and who is a good fit for the club, than take yet another gamble that has absolutely no guarantee it would work, or maybe not a a good long term fit for the club

[kro1970]

I've had a season ticket since the days of 4000 gates, and the only thing that would make me not renew is if our Board treated Tony this dispicably. Tony's health is much more important than what division we'll be in next year.

[choc]

Mar 18, 2024 9:40:11 GMT almajir said:

Some of the responses on this thread genuinely make me fear for the human race.

It feels like people are so focused on Blues they're willing to eff over one of the nicest people in the game in the hope of bringing in another manager so we don't go down.

Have some compassion for the love of God.

There is a difference between some, not many, saying sack Mowbray and some saying an interim manager should be bought in to help Venus should it look like TM is struggling to return. That's not a lack of compassion, that's just like any business being sensible if a situation becomes critical. 

[almajir]

Mar 18, 2024 14:28:10 GMT choc said:

Mar 18, 2024 9:40:11 GMT almajir said:

Some of the responses on this thread genuinely make me fear for the human race.

It feels like people are so focused on Blues they're willing to eff over one of the nicest people in the game in the hope of bringing in another manager so we don't go down.

Have some compassion for the love of God.

There is a difference between some, not many, saying sack Mowbray and some saying an interim manager should be bought in to help Venus should it look like TM is struggling to return. That's not a lack of compassion, that's just like any business being sensible if a situation becomes critical. 

As I wrote today dude, I'd only accept an interim with the following caveats:

* Whoever comes in needs to come in with the consent of Tony Mowbray and Mark Venus.

* Whoever comes in also needs to be able to slot in and reinforce current training and messages. Trying to make any kind of drastic changes is only going to cause more chaos and confusion and we don’t have the space for that now

* Realistically, whoever comes in needs to understand it’s probably not more than a temporary role until Mowbray returns to full health.

(the rest of what I wrote today is here: almajir.net/2024/03/18/bcfc-the-r-word/)

[albert]

I personally don't think we will see TM back at BCFC. I hope i'm wrong and he's back fit & healthy asap but i have doubts. I also think it'd be a fcukin scummy thing to do to sack him at the moment and even talking about that scenario feels uncomfortable to me.

[choc]

Mar 18, 2024 14:51:42 GMT albert said:

I personally don't think we will see TM back at BCFC. I hope i'm wrong and he's back fit & healthy asap but i have doubts. I also think it'd be a fcukin scummy thing to do to sack him at the moment and even talking about that scenario feels uncomfortable to me.

I don't think there are many actually calling for his head.

[dutchblue]

I 100% agree on all the caveats put forward by Aljamir and have said the exact same things myself previously.
If Mowbray is sacked, heavens forbid, then I will immediately, totally and permanently disassociate myself from the club and anything Blues.
Fortunately I think there is not a cat in hell’s chance of that happening.

[choc]

Why do some actually believe that the club will possibly sack Mowbray 🤔