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Post by bubba on Nov 22, 2021 19:27:11 GMT
So Austria have decided to make covid vaccinations mandatory which begs the question who owns your body, you or the state?
Knowing how so many people today are only too eager to help build their own prison I'm well aware that plenty of my fellow citizens would be only too happy for the British Government to follow suit, to which I would say the following.
No matter what argument you make, what social justifications you think make you right, you are arguing for the state to take sovereignty over citizens bodies against their will, which is tantamount to one definition of slavery, ergo however you dress it up, you are agreeing to the state enslaving free people.
It may temporarily pacify your zeal for state force, but remember next time it might be something you don't agree to but the precedent will have been set, that's kinda how law and governments work, once you acquiesce to something, you don't get to fliip your choice next time around, not where your overlords are concerned.
I remember so well how some of those who voted against Brexit campaigned so hard after the fact to overturn the legal outcome of a democratic vote, so am well aware this logic is completely lost on some, so I'm not as optimistic as I should be that my fellow free citizens would stand up for everybody's rights at the expense of their opinion damn it.
Discuss
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Post by Will on Nov 22, 2021 19:51:09 GMT
So Austria have decided to make covid vaccinations mandatory which begs the question who owns your body, you or the state?
Knowing how so many people today are only too eager to help build their own prison I'm well aware that plenty of my fellow citizens would be only too happy for the British Government to follow suit, to which I would say the following.
No matter what argument you make, what social justifications you think make you right, you are arguing for the state to take sovereignty over citizens bodies against their will, which is tantamount to one definition of slavery, ergo however you dress it up, you are agreeing to the state enslaving free people.
It may temporarily pacify your zeal for state force, but remember next time it might be something you don't agree to but the precedent will have been set, that's kinda how law and governments work, once you acquiesce to something, you don't get to fliip your choice next time around, not where your overlords are concerned.
I remember so well how some of those who voted against Brexit campaigned so hard after the fact to overturn the legal outcome of a democratic vote, so am well aware this logic is completely lost on some, so I'm not as optimistic as I should be that my fellow free citizens would stand up for everybody's rights at the expense of their opinion damn it.
Discuss
Come on Bubba ...
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Post by bubba on Nov 22, 2021 20:08:16 GMT
A supposed democratic country in the 21st century West has declared itself sovereign over people's own bodies.
I think it's not only a fair but a highly relevant question to ponder, in all it's consequences.
I'm curious where people stand on the issue because I also live in a Western supposedly democratic country in the 21st century and I think I and I alone have sovereignty over my body and especially what GOES IN IT!
Further still, I'd consider myself or anyody else morally and legally justified in defending that right of sovereignty to the maximum degree, including murder and terrorism as self-defence.
Just as with those anti-Brexiters failing to see the bigger picture of what their campaigning was in reality attempting to do to freedom and democracy (which was of far more significance than the vote itself) I'm quite certain even having the consequences laid out quite clearly there are those that would still choose to yeah go ahead, strap em down and prick em.
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Post by Will on Nov 22, 2021 20:15:00 GMT
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Post by bubba on Nov 22, 2021 20:26:28 GMT
Again I think it's a relevant and important discussion to have, particularly for those who feel justified in determining what goes into other people's bodies.
I would never ever ever, presume such authority over other free people. For me there is no argument anyone can make to justify that mentality, yet it got passed into law in a country not far away that politcally and culturally is broadly similar to our own.
Why not reintroduce that old much loved and missed tradition of prima nocta where some high and mighty can put what he likes into your new brides lady bits even before you do?
Oh that's right it was outlawed as morally abhorrent.
Discuss
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 22, 2021 20:51:31 GMT
Ownership. I'd say if you own something: You have exclusive rights of use. You have exclusive rights to loan it out, or hire it out. Sell it, alter it or destroy it. If you don't have any one of these, you don't fully / partially own it. What the Austrian government has declared is, they own their citizens.
Needless to say, it's not any surprise to me, as I've been warning about it for about 18 months now. It's why I wanted it nipped in the bud, with the fcuking face nappies etc. I've been warning everyone, that the government was trying to see what the people would put up with. Masks, closed businesses, anti-social distancing, can't see your dying parents, can't go for a walk miles from anyone, can't drive your car where you want, can't have friends over, can't sit on a public bench, allowed out once a day for exercise. My God.
Then they really started to take the piss. Everyone could see these rules didn't apply to them. It's not too dangerous to import people from all over the world. It's OK to gather in a riot. 'Let's have some fun' they must have thought. You can have 7 people in your house, it's the eighth that'll kill you. If you want a beer, you'll have to have a scotch egg, to keep you safe. Pubs must absolutely close at 10pm - unless it goes to penalties, then it doesn't matter. 'Hee hee, they're still buying it'
We're hosting a football tournament. 2500 VIPs ignoring the rules won't matter. Nothing ? OK, let's make it 25,000 coming in for a climate conference, see if they put two and two together.
"Someone just choked to death on a Scotch egg" "Put him down as a covid death" "Tell 'em this terrible plague is so deadly, they need a test to see if they've had it. Tell the chunts, they can have it with zero symptoms"
Well, I don't think that if any of you died, you'd have to wait 6 months to get buried.
If I could see this coming last May, you can be sure it was planned before we'd heard about covid.
I've said previously, I think the next variant they pull out of their arse, will be caused by un-vaccinated people, who will be the equivalent of a Wuhan lab. I'm getting seriously worried about all these super prisons they are building. What are they expecting ?
Like bubba, I've tried to warn that though you might not be alarmed by this, you might be alarmed by the next thing. Personally, I feel a tyrannical net closing in, and all I get is 'The King has some beautiful clothes, just like the media & government experts, say'
"You should have the jab, or you're selfish" "It doesn't stop the spread, and if the fcuking thing worked, you needn't worry if you've had yours" "Oh yes, I know. Also, I've got my coat on, put yours on, so I don't get cold"
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 22, 2021 21:04:39 GMT
Again I think it's a relevant and important discussion to have, particularly for those who feel justified in determining what goes into other people's bodies.
I would never ever ever, presume such authority over other free people. For me there is no argument anyone can make to justify that mentality, yet it got passed into law in a country not far away that politcally and culturally is broadly similar to our own.
Why not reintroduce that old much loved and missed tradition of prima nocta where some high and mighty can put what he likes into your new brides lady bits even before you do?
Oh that's right it was outlawed as morally abhorrent.
Discuss
You may get accused of wearing a tin foil hat, and having your concerns equated to a belief in fairies and a flat Earth. The ruling class (politicians), the cathedral (media & education) & merchant class (multi national corporations), are all on the same page. (With the same group of people pulling the strings, in my view, but we can leave that) Propaganda works best with the masses if it's kept simple. Does not go into detail, and does not acknowledge anyone wanting to go into detail. Simple, short messages, constantly repeated. Move the goal posts with small, baby steps. 2 / 3 weeks to flatten the curve. Masks. Social distance. A jab. 2 jabs. 3 jabs. Regular jabs Use the carrot & the stick. Create a division between those (sensible, intelligent, caring people) who do as they are told, and those (selfish, crazy, easily led, public health hazards) who don't.
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Post by bubba on Nov 22, 2021 21:37:11 GMT
You may get accused of wearing a tin foil hat, and having your concerns equated to a belief in fairies and a flat Earth. The ruling class (politicians), the cathedral (media & education) & merchant class (multi national corporations), are all on the same page. (With the same group of people pulling the strings, in my view, but we can leave that) Propaganda works best with the masses if it's kept simple. Does not go into detail, and does not acknowledge anyone wanting to go into detail. Simple, short messages, constantly repeated. Move the goal posts with small, baby steps. 2 / 3 weeks to flatten the curve. Masks. Social distance. A jab. 2 jabs. 3 jabs. Regular jabs Use the carrot & the stick. Create a division between those (sensible, intelligent, caring people) who do as they are told, and those (selfish, crazy, easily led, public health hazards) who don't.
Water off a duck's back after more than twenty years but typical gaslighting for a morally indefensible position for anyone that does. Truth is pretty much everybody deep down understands the point I'm making, but can they bring themselves to say and preach the right thing or do their own fears mean it all goes out the window and they will line up to champion an evil overreach of political legal power without the foresight to see different future circumstances that put them or their loved ones in the crosshairs?
You can't have a free and just society with individual rights protected by law and make exceptions on a whim for transitory situations that satisfy your subjective feelings and still have a free and just society, by definition you have consented that the state henceforth shall decide when and if those tenets apply.
It's an indefensible position, I'm not expecting much argument, but that doesn't console me that their inner dictator isn't still driving the bus.
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Post by Will on Nov 22, 2021 21:57:55 GMT
You may get accused of wearing a tin foil hat, and having your concerns equated to a belief in fairies and a flat Earth. The ruling class (politicians), the cathedral (media & education) & merchant class (multi national corporations), are all on the same page. (With the same group of people pulling the strings, in my view, but we can leave that) Propaganda works best with the masses if it's kept simple. Does not go into detail, and does not acknowledge anyone wanting to go into detail. Simple, short messages, constantly repeated. Move the goal posts with small, baby steps. 2 / 3 weeks to flatten the curve. Masks. Social distance. A jab. 2 jabs. 3 jabs. Regular jabs Use the carrot & the stick. Create a division between those (sensible, intelligent, caring people) who do as they are told, and those (selfish, crazy, easily led, public health hazards) who don't.
Water off a duck's back after more than twenty years but typical gaslighting for a morally indefensible position for anyone that does. Truth is pretty much everybody deep down understands the point I'm making, but can they bring themselves to say and preach the right thing or do their own fears mean it all goes out the window and they will line up to champion an evil overreach of political legal power without the foresight to see different future circumstances that put them or their loved ones in the crosshairs?
You can't have a free and just society with individual rights protected by law and make exceptions on a whim for transitory situations that satisfy your subjective feelings and still have a free and just society, by definition you have consented that the state henceforth shall decide when and if those tenets apply.
It's an indefensible position, I'm not expecting much argument, but that doesn't console me that their inner dictator isn't still driving the bus.
Jolly good!
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Post by bubba on Nov 22, 2021 22:21:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 22:39:42 GMT
People should get vaccinated and sure incentivise getting the vaccination
however mandatory vaccinations is just wrong
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 0:14:31 GMT
Good man. Tbh I constantly weigh the matter in my mind, some days I get quite close to deciding yes but it has to be my choice. I don't even mind being bombarded with medical argument. I do object to politicising the matter and misleading information being used to coerce me. Nobody knows the long term effects of any of the vaccines. There have been allergic reactions and complications, even death from taking the vaccines. I understand the threat of covid is statistically an even greater threat, but that doesn't mean I'm not also potentially putting myself in harm's way by taking the vaccine. (and how dare anyone think that's a decision that shouldn't be mine, especially after they've made their own decision, what hypocrisy) It's my body, I can't trade it in if something goes wrong and I have a family that depends on me. These vaccine manufacturers have been legally exempted from prosecution if they harm or kill me, that's really not reassuring. There are other very promising (and cheap) drugs that have been around a long time (tried and tested) that could potentially protect people as much if not more than the vaccines yet governments generally have refused to explore them, I find that very suspicious. If the vaccines are so good at protecting people, and the data seems to suggest they are in terms of the severity of symptons upon infection, at least for now, then why should some of those vaccinated care what others choose to do, when logically it would seem (and the data tells us in fact) it's the unvaccinated themselves who are most at risk? That's never made sense to me, they and theirs (presumably) should feel relatively safe from death or serious illness from covid infection and ready to preach I told you so from their lofty perch as the foolhardy die off from their stubborn resistence. There must be other psychological (not medical) factors in play in their thinking I'd imagine, though I can't think what. Historically we have demonised individuals and states that have forced invasive medical procedures on people against their will, were we, are we wrong to do that? It's a funny old world.
I have repeatedly seen the unvaccinated referred to as selfish, well I won't deny in my case there's a pretty large element of that. However I'm equally convinced that many of those shouting loudest for others to get vaccinated are doing so in order that there's no more lockdowns, they can go the pub, go anywhere, do anything when they want, isn't that just as selfish, more so even since they're more than happy for others to be FORCED against their will to comply?
The irony of course is that increasingly the unvaccinated are being made second class citizens, unable to fully partake in society like the vaccinated with vaccine passports (show me your papers) allowing them the freedoms we were all due all along anyway. Yet despite this they're still selfish and those enjoying greater freedom their vaccination status gives them still feel compelled to demonise people who increasingly have little effect on their day to day lives and pose little risk to them.
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Post by Will on Nov 23, 2021 9:12:51 GMT
People should get vaccinated and sure incentivise getting the vaccination however mandatory vaccinations is just wrong Well said BN68 - on both counts. Fancy that, an anti-Brexiteer who doesn't want to strap anti-vaxxers to a gurney and jab them with the evil vaccine! To hear some people talk, you'd think that anyone who voted Remain would have been out on the streets rounding up the selfish b******s with nets on the end of 10 metre long poles (resist the temptation to deliberately confuse poles and Poles for a cheap laugh, please!) and delivering them to some Stasi-like bunker where mad scientists in white coats are waiting with huge cartoon syringes, determined to give them a better chance of avoiding death by Covid while at the same time helping to slow the spread of the virus. I'm like you BN68 - if folk don't want to have the jab, for whatever selfish reasons, let them go without. I just wish they'd STFU about it. BTW, I'm sure that the Austrian government will live to regret their decision, and I think that by Christmas they'll have realised that they have dropped a huge b*ll*ck, and will have to reverse it. There, the two w0ke folk on the forum agree with the "jambons" on this, so the latter can just do their blood pressure a favour and caaaaaaaaalllllllllllmmmm down. Nothing to see here - move along.
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Post by choc on Nov 23, 2021 10:03:10 GMT
Yes I agree that nobody should be forced to have any medical procedure, it should be their choice. Do you not think that the last couple of years is the the dress rehearsal for the 'big virus' that is inevitable in the future. The only problem I have with anti vax folk is 2 things. 1-When they get covid and take up a hospital bed that should be used for others 2-Trying to influence others not to take the vax because of something they read on Facebook book, or what ever they call it now.
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Post by Will on Nov 23, 2021 11:44:36 GMT
Yes I agree that nobody should be forced to have any medical procedure, it should be their choice. Do you not think that the last couple of years is the the dress rehearsal for the 'big virus' that is inevitable in the future. The only problem I have with anti vax folk is 2 things. 1-When they get covid and take up a hospital bed that should be used for others 2-Trying to influence others not to take the vax because of something they read on Facebook book, or what ever they call it now.Indeed.
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 11:49:05 GMT
Yes I agree that nobody should be forced to have any medical procedure, it should be their choice. Do you not think that the last couple of years is the the dress rehearsal for the 'big virus' that is inevitable in the future. The only problem I have with anti vax folk is 2 things. 1-When they get covid and take up a hospital bed that should be used for others 2-Trying to influence others not to take the vax because of something they read on Facebook book, or what ever they call it now.
1 - So by that line of thinking anybody who makes a choice that places them at higher risk and results in them being in hospital should be equally castigated for taking up a bed that could be used for others. Smokers, drinkers, drug users, people partaking in contact sports resulting in injury, people involuntarily involved in traffic accidents, they could have stayed at home, people staying at home where most accidents happen, people engaging in unprotected sex and contracting severe /fatal infections, hikers, dog walkers or anybody engaging in any recreational physical activity resulting in injury, they could have chosen not to do so like others unselfishly do, diabetics whose condition is caused by lifestyle choices over time and on and on and on and on and on we go. Let those without sin cast the first stone and leave them hospital beds for the good and mostly healthy folk.
2, Agreed, although millions of unqualified folk feel the inherent right to argue the opposite ad from what I've seen some of their sources aren't always great either and even where they are they misrepresent those sources.
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 11:55:00 GMT
Well said BN68 - on both counts. Fancy that, an anti-Brexiteer who doesn't want to strap anti-vaxxers to a gurney and jab them with the evil vaccine!---- misrepresentation of prior post which stated the line of thinking was the same, not that the people were the same peopleTo hear some people talk, you'd think that anyone who voted Remain would have been out on the streets rounding up the selfish b******s with nets on the end of 10 metre long poles (resist the temptation to deliberately confuse poles and Poles for a cheap laugh, please!) and delivering them to some Stasi-like bunker where mad scientists in white coats are waiting with huge cartoon syringes, determined to give them a better chance of avoiding death by Covid while at the same time helping to slow the spread of the virus.------- misrepresentation of prior post which stated the line of thinking was the same, not that the people were the same peopleI'm like you BN68 - if folk don't want to have the jab, for whatever selfish reasons, let them go without. I just wish they'd STFU about it.----- CANCEL CANCEL CANCELBTW, I'm sure that the Austrian government will live to regret their decision, and I think that by Christmas they'll have realised that they have dropped a huge b*ll*ck, and will have to reverse it.--- AGREEDThere, the two w0ke folk on the forum agree with the "jambons" on this, so the latter can just do their blood pressure a favour and caaaaaaaaalllllllllllmmmm down.----- labelling, more cancel culture CANCEL CANCEL CANCELNothing to see here - move along.----- CANCEL CANCEL CANCEL
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 11:59:47 GMT
As said I didn't expect much of an argument and Will's post ably demonstrates that as it's full of misrepresentation of other's views and cancel culture with the least amount of space devoted to the primary question at hand.
Thankfully even he still agrees, glad everyone so far understands it's a totally indefensible and morally reprehensible position to argue otherwise, sadly that is far far far from a Universally accepted p.o.v.
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Post by choc on Nov 23, 2021 12:52:49 GMT
Yes I agree that nobody should be forced to have any medical procedure, it should be their choice. Do you not think that the last couple of years is the the dress rehearsal for the 'big virus' that is inevitable in the future. The only problem I have with anti vax folk is 2 things. 1-When they get covid and take up a hospital bed that should be used for others 2-Trying to influence others not to take the vax because of something they read on Facebook book, or what ever they call it now.
1 - So by that line of thinking anybody who makes a choice that places them at higher risk and results in them being in hospital should be equally castigated for taking up a bed that could be used for others. Smokers, drinkers, drug users, people partaking in contact sports resulting in injury, people involuntarily involved in traffic accidents, they could have stayed at home, people staying at home where most accidents happen, people engaging in unprotected sex and contracting severe /fatal infections, hikers, dog walkers or anybody engaging in any recreational physical activity resulting in injury, they could have chosen not to do so like others unselfishly do, diabetics whose condition is caused by lifestyle choices over time and on and on and on and on and on we go. Let those without sin cast the first stone and leave them hospital beds for the good and mostly healthy folk.
2, Agreed, although millions of unqualified folk feel the inherent right to argue the opposite ad from what I've seen some of their sources aren't always great either and even where they are they misrepresent those sources.
All of those people should get the bed before any anti Vax protester.
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Post by Will on Nov 23, 2021 13:02:49 GMT
Well said BN68 - on both counts. Fancy that, an anti-Brexiteer who doesn't want to strap anti-vaxxers to a gurney and jab them with the evil vaccine!---- misrepresentation of prior post which stated the line of thinking was the same, not that the people were the same peopleTo hear some people talk, you'd think that anyone who voted Remain would have been out on the streets rounding up the selfish b******s with nets on the end of 10 metre long poles (resist the temptation to deliberately confuse poles and Poles for a cheap laugh, please!) and delivering them to some Stasi-like bunker where mad scientists in white coats are waiting with huge cartoon syringes, determined to give them a better chance of avoiding death by Covid while at the same time helping to slow the spread of the virus.------- misrepresentation of prior post which stated the line of thinking was the same, not that the people were the same peopleI'm like you BN68 - if folk don't want to have the jab, for whatever selfish reasons, let them go without. I just wish they'd STFU about it.----- CANCEL CANCEL CANCELBTW, I'm sure that the Austrian government will live to regret their decision, and I think that by Christmas they'll have realised that they have dropped a huge b*ll*ck, and will have to reverse it.--- AGREEDThere, the two w0ke folk on the forum agree with the "jambons" on this, so the latter can just do their blood pressure a favour and caaaaaaaaalllllllllllmmmm down.----- labelling, more cancel culture CANCEL CANCEL CANCELNothing to see here - move along.----- CANCEL CANCEL CANCEL
I've only got your best interests at heart Bubba! I mean, I don't know what you were expecting from this thread, but I'm guessing that it was either a) some sort reassurance that your view of the Austrian Government's decision was widely held by others, b) a chance to have a real dust up with anyone who who deviated in any way from your opinion, or c) a chance to justify your own anti-vaxxer stance yet again (which could equally lead to another real dust up.) I find the comparison with the post-Brexit situation quite bizarre - attempting to compare people who wanted to have a second referendum once the full details of the Withdrawal Agreement were known (which would in all likelihood have resulted in the same decision to leave, and would have silenced any further argument on the subject) to a National Government which has made an anti-democratic decision without consulting its people, is plain ridiculous. So putting all of the above together, I can only suspect that you were after a little from column b) and a little from column c), and that you were quite disappointed to receive a lot from column a) instead. Which is a shame. There is enough to worry about in the world what with Governments both near and far imposing all sorts of horrible laws on their inhabitants without having to worry about whether fellow Blues fans on a forum share your entirely reasonable views on such things. But if you think that it's worth discussing that sort of thing full in the knowledge that everybody else is likely to agree with you (especially when there is plenty of evidence in the thread to prove that), then who am I to cancel you? Right, I'm just off to start a thread entitled "Today, in the UK, at time of posting, it is Tuesday", and I'm looking forward to a right royal dust up! I hope that no-one will attempt to cancel cancel cancel my thread.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 13:17:32 GMT
Now now boys play nicely..... My politics/internal beliefs are that i look for a sense of fairness in the way people are treated. I therefore cant hold positions on people having the right to be treated fairly on stuff like Immigration, sexism and racism- and then hold a contrary position on people who decide not to take a vaccination. I do agree one of the problems with the way that population of people are portrayed is that they do get lumped into the same bracket as those people you all know who get their news and view from facebook posts. Sadly tho we are in a country that has thrived on culture wars- and this government will happily keep fanning those flames against anti vaxers as its an easy win to point the finger at a group of people than to be questioned about their own competence/decision making. See also their happiness to point the finger at people crossing the channel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 13:31:07 GMT
People should get vaccinated and sure incentivise getting the vaccination however mandatory vaccinations is just wrong Blimey,im agreeing with BN68. I too wish everybody would get the jab but,being forced into shouldn't come into the equation. What will happen if it does become mandatory and, people still refuse ?
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 14:28:08 GMT
People should get vaccinated and sure incentivise getting the vaccination however mandatory vaccinations is just wrong Blimey,im agreeing with BN68. I too wish everybody would get the jab but,being forced into shouldn't come into the equation. What will happen if it does become mandatory and, people still refuse ? I come from a standpoint that we are all born with inalienable rights, one of which is sovereignty over your own body and what goes into it. If anybody, citizen, polce or government seeks to remove that right from me by force, then to me it is immoral, illegal unconscionable by any standards of human rights and they lose any assuumed protection or validation of law.
Whether you agree with those who choose to not be vaccinated is not the point, the point is it is their choice and belief, in which case it is and would be to many no different to being approached by someone with a weapon intent on commtting harm or causing death against you. Again it DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE, under those conditions I and I assume many others if able would use lethal force if necessary to protect themselves, which is also a right protected under law.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 14:29:52 GMT
People should get vaccinated and sure incentivise getting the vaccination however mandatory vaccinations is just wrong Blimey,im agreeing with BN68. I too wish everybody would get the jab but,being forced into shouldn't come into the equation. What will happen if it does become mandatory and, people still refuse ? Erm are we in danger of peace breaking out on the WWJO message boards? Blimey indeed
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 23, 2021 14:44:54 GMT
Well said BN68 - on both counts. Fancy that, an anti-Brexiteer who doesn't want to strap anti-vaxxers to a gurney and jab them with the evil vaccine!---- misrepresentation of prior post which stated the line of thinking was the same, not that the people were the same peopleTo hear some people talk, you'd think that anyone who voted Remain would have been out on the streets rounding up the selfish b******s with nets on the end of 10 metre long poles (resist the temptation to deliberately confuse poles and Poles for a cheap laugh, please!) and delivering them to some Stasi-like bunker where mad scientists in white coats are waiting with huge cartoon syringes, determined to give them a better chance of avoiding death by Covid while at the same time helping to slow the spread of the virus.------- misrepresentation of prior post which stated the line of thinking was the same, not that the people were the same peopleI'm like you BN68 - if folk don't want to have the jab, for whatever selfish reasons, let them go without. I just wish they'd STFU about it.----- CANCEL CANCEL CANCELBTW, I'm sure that the Austrian government will live to regret their decision, and I think that by Christmas they'll have realised that they have dropped a huge b*ll*ck, and will have to reverse it.--- AGREEDThere, the two w0ke folk on the forum agree with the "jambons" on this, so the latter can just do their blood pressure a favour and caaaaaaaaalllllllllllmmmm down.----- labelling, more cancel culture CANCEL CANCEL CANCELNothing to see here - move along.----- CANCEL CANCEL CANCEL
it usually goes like this - ignore (esp media), mock (flat Earth), misrepresent (lie), try to change the subject, vilify (all the name calling), silence. Those in power also throw in 'experts' who are paid to reach the government's findings. To create prediction models, which make assumptions. I believe people should ask themselves a few questions. 1. If you believed a new virus was super deadly, and could kill half a million people in the UK. Would you instantly be balls deep in your promiscuous, married lover ? Would you be going to (large) wedding & funerals ? Because that's what our dear leaders were doing. 2. If an actual plague arrived on our shores from abroad. A new black death. Would you invite thousands of people from the Middle East & Africa, put 'em up in a hotel, give 'em some spending money, and tell them to be back at meal times ? 3. If you were in charge, would you use drones to see if anyone was walking their dog, 4 miles from anyone else, in the Peak District; and completely ignore someone standing on the Cenotaph burning the flag, during a riot (which also seems to be no problem) ? 4. If you were compiling records of cases, would you use a test which wasn't designed for the disease, and tell everyone there can be false positives (which you'd count), and admit that some people are immune from even the slightest inconvenience from the virus, to the point they didn't notice ? (And still count them). 5. If you were compiling details of death, from this virus, would you be happy with your data, if the people in (4. above) were included, having been electrocuted ? Could you with a clear conscious, state totals ? If your answers are 'yes, seems reasonable', then you are entitled to your views. Sleep soundly in your bed, in the comfortable thought that politicians are not capable of lying. If you're in the no camp, you should start to compile a few questions of your own. Why ? being the first one.
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 14:57:44 GMT
I've only got your best interests at heart Bubba! How many times has that cover been used for human atrocities through history, oh look the good guys are coming to saving us. I mean, I don't know what you were expecting from this thread, but I'm guessing that it was either a) some sort reassurance that your view of the Austrian Government's decision was widely held by others, b) a chance to have a real dust up with anyone who who deviated in any way from your opinion, or c) a chance to justify your own anti-vaxxer stance yet again (which could equally lead to another real dust up.) A- that would be nice - B - you clearly haven't been payng attention for 5 years, I don't have dust ups with anyone - C - OH MY FCUKING GOD, for the tenth time, I'm not an anti-vaxxer, it's a proven medical technology that saves lives, I and I know many others are wary of these specific fast tracked vaccines - You really need to ease up on the labelling of others, especially when you're ascribing it to people it doesn't apply to. I realise amongst the hard of thinking it can appear to legitimise your argument by virtue of labelling your adversary in some derogatory and highly humorous way, but most know better and see it for what it is, weak argument attack the person, it's an old and poor debating technique.I find the comparison with the post-Brexit situation quite bizarre - attempting to compare people who wanted to have a second referendum once the full details of the Withdrawal Agreement were known (which would in all likelihood have resulted in the same decision to leave, and would have silenced any further argument on the subject) to a National Government which has made an anti-democratic decision without consulting its people, is plain ridiculous. You've twisted what I was saying to better suit the wrong interpretation you first tried, what I was saying was in the immediate aftermath of the result you had tens of thousands of those who voted to remain exploring every possibility, legal or otherwise to overturn the result or have a second referendum, indeed some are still at it. The greater point of this greater even than the vote itself was that these MINORITY of remain voters couldn't see past their immediate need to have their own way and ignored the bigger picture of what their actions if successful would have meant for democracy and freedom - THIS IS THE POINT AND WHAT'S BEING COMPARED, USING CAPS SO IT DOESN'T GET LOST IN TRANSLATION.So putting all of the above together, I can only suspect that you were after a little from column b) and a little from column c), and that you were quite disappointed to receive a lot from column a) instead. Which is a shame. WRONG WRONG WRONG There is enough to worry about in the world what with Governments both near and far imposing all sorts of horrible laws on their inhabitants AGREED without having to worry about whether fellow Blues fans on a forum share your entirely reasonable views on such things. But if you think that it's worth discussing that sort of thing full in the knowledge that everybody else is likely to agree with you (especially when there is plenty of evidence in the thread to prove that), then who am I to cancel you? AGREEDRight, I'm just off to start a thread entitled "Today, in the UK, at time of posting, it is Tuesday", and I'm looking forward to a right royal dust up! I hope that no-one will attempt to cancel cancel cancel my thread.
Finally, it took a while but we got there in the end, other folk can have threads about topics they choose, blimey was like pulling teeth that.
Yes I did want to satisfy myself that most on here would agree it would be wrong for the UK government to try and pull this. Despte your claims that it was obvious, I know from wider social media reading that it is not quite the certainty you claim it to be. Further in the polarised world we've been beamed into these last 5 years it seems extreme anti human views are increasingly seen by some as acceptable.
I want people to think before they bracket other human beings as being in some way less than themselves, because even those who consider themselves champions of 'the people' particularly where colour, culture, gender and sexual orientation are concerned are in my estimation just as guilty as others towards people, human beings all, who don't fall in to their protection zone of minorities. We are all free, we all have rights, differences of opinion shouldn't cloud that.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 23, 2021 15:02:37 GMT
Blimey,im agreeing with BN68. I too wish everybody would get the jab but,being forced into shouldn't come into the equation. What will happen if it does become mandatory and, people still refuse ? I come from a standpoint that we are all born with inalienable rights, one of which is sovereignty over your own body and what goes into it. If anybody, citizen, polce or government seeks to remove that right from me by force, then to me it is immoral, illegal unconscionable by any standards of human rights and they lose any assuumed protection or validation of law.
Whether you agree with those who choose to not be vaccinated is not the point, the point is it is their choice and belief, in which case it is and would be to many no different to being approached by someone with a weapon intent on commtting harm or causing death against you. Again it DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE, under those conditions I and I assume many others if able would use lethal force if necessary to protect themselves, which is also a right protected under law. Pretty much. I said over a year ago - I'd have taken the jab. But the lies started (why?) I needed, and still need to know whether I will be forced. I fear something terrible is coming, which has nothing to do with covid. The government has granted itself any power it dreamed up. With fcuk all to stop them. The massive protests are ignored, even more than the boat people. It'll be of no consolation to you and I, when the reality of our situation, becomes obvious to all.
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 15:10:43 GMT
1 - So by that line of thinking anybody who makes a choice that places them at higher risk and results in them being in hospital should be equally castigated for taking up a bed that could be used for others. Smokers, drinkers, drug users, people partaking in contact sports resulting in injury, people involuntarily involved in traffic accidents, they could have stayed at home, people staying at home where most accidents happen, people engaging in unprotected sex and contracting severe /fatal infections, hikers, dog walkers or anybody engaging in any recreational physical activity resulting in injury, they could have chosen not to do so like others unselfishly do, diabetics whose condition is caused by lifestyle choices over time and on and on and on and on and on we go. Let those without sin cast the first stone and leave them hospital beds for the good and mostly healthy folk.
2, Agreed, although millions of unqualified folk feel the inherent right to argue the opposite ad from what I've seen some of their sources aren't always great either and even where they are they misrepresent those sources.
All of those people should get the bed before any anti Vax protester.
I disgree and see no distinction between one group making choices that put them in hospital and another group doing the same, perhaps the difference is whether or not you agree with one group's choices and less on the notion of there being no distinction ultimately, just saying.
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Post by choc on Nov 23, 2021 15:33:32 GMT
All of those people should get the bed before any anti Vax protester.
I disgree and see no distinction between one group making choices that put them in hospital and another group doing the same, perhaps the difference is whether or not you agree with one group's choices and less on the notion of there being no distinction ultimately, just saying.
Because the smokers or the drinkers have not single-handedly shafted the NHS or the day to day workings of the country where as Covid has. That's the difference.
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Post by bubba on Nov 23, 2021 15:46:27 GMT
OK, that's a p.o.v but what I'm saying is their lifestyle choices have caused health conditions that have landed them in hospital, some choosing not to be vaccinated will because of that choice end up in hospital. I really don't see any difference whatsoever except it's more acceptable for some to demonise one group who's choices they strongly disagree with.
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