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Post by bubba on Nov 26, 2021 23:29:33 GMT
bubba That’s interesting re ivermectin. Do you have a credible article about it? (Hard to find via Google )
When looking for these found out apparently the UK is now going to undertake larger scale clinical trials.
This is the guy I was talking about before, He's pro vaccine but also pro truth and science, talking to a doctor about Ivermectin studies.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 10:20:35 GMT
Interesting stuff. This is worth reading in relation to that ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/05/26/bmjebm-2021-111678I might be getting into tonight foul hat territory myself here but I can’t help but wonder why things like invermectin and that other drug Trump used to jabber in about -are mysteriously pushed so hard
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Post by bubba on Nov 27, 2021 12:07:57 GMT
Yes it's basically saying to be wary of numerous small scale studies that are not peer reviewed and that larger scale clinical studies under strict trial criteria are required rather than relying on the independent ad unverified studies, I completely agree and finally it seems some health authorities in countries are begnning that process, though notably after anywhere from 60-90% of Western populations of nations have been vaccinated with a fast tracked drug with no long term studies and complete legal waivers given to the vaccine producers and people harm been harmed and killed with it impossible now to ascertain just what kind of numbers that has happened with or will continue into the future.
Vitamin D supplements cost pennies and Ivermectin is also incredibly cheap to produce and to buy, as said there are other drugs too. They took a year to come up with these vaccines, you'd think that time would have been better spent doing these clinical trials with proven existing cheap and easily available drugs en masse around the world, remember during vaccine research we were told there was no guarantee that even fast tracking would produce a vacine anytime soon. Given how the world has mobilised itself since the vaccines were produced to lockdown, and rollout the vaccines, it seems to me that governments are more than able get things done when it's an agenda of their choosing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 12:10:09 GMT
Bn68 It’s symbolic - it offers some form of alternative to the vacinne.
What I find most strange is that so many anti vaxxers (not just Covid but all vacinnes) go on about personal choice yet so many of them are against the choice of women to have abortions. You can’t pick and choose. Bit of cognitive dissonance whenever I call anyone out on that.
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Post by bubba on Nov 27, 2021 13:02:34 GMT
Bn68 It’s symbolic - it offers some form of alternative to the vacinne. What I find most strange is that so many anti vaxxers (not just Covid but all vacinnes) go on about personal choice yet so many of them are against the choice of women to have abortions. You can’t pick and choose. Bit of cognitive dissonance whenever I call anyone out on that.
I assume this is in your personal experience because linking those two issues together would require significant polling and tbh even though I'm neither an anti-vaxxer nor against women choosing what happens with their bodies that on the face of it seems both an extreme case of stereotyping aswell as extremely unlikely imo.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 27, 2021 13:04:58 GMT
Bn68 It’s symbolic - it offers some form of alternative to the vacinne. What I find most strange is that so many anti vaxxers (not just Covid but all vacinnes) go on about personal choice yet so many of them are against the choice of women to have abortions. You can’t pick and choose. Bit of cognitive dissonance whenever I call anyone out on that. And visa versa
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 17:30:32 GMT
Bn68 It’s symbolic - it offers some form of alternative to the vacinne. What I find most strange is that so many anti vaxxers (not just Covid but all vacinnes) go on about personal choice yet so many of them are against the choice of women to have abortions. You can’t pick and choose. Bit of cognitive dissonance whenever I call anyone out on that.
I assume this is in your personal experience because linking those two issues together would require significant polling and tbh even though I'm neither an anti-vaxxer nor against women choosing what happens with their bodies that on the face of it seems both an extreme case of stereotyping aswell as extremely unlikely imo.
Most anti vaxxers especially American ones are pro life. The movements are heavily intertwined, not stereotyping just observations. If there was a Venn diagram the overlap between these would very high.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 27, 2021 18:20:26 GMT
Years ago. When he was in his 'occupy' mindset. I always thought 'he knows something's wrong, but he doesn't know what it is'
He didn't seem in the best of moods back then (but he did get on TV)
Now he gets it, he seems to have picked up, which is the exact opposite of how I've been since my road to Damascus moment(s)
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 27, 2021 23:37:18 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2021 13:48:55 GMT
A very good thread on partisanship around covid-19
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Post by bubba on Nov 28, 2021 17:43:35 GMT
I assume this is in your personal experience because linking those two issues together would require significant polling and tbh even though I'm neither an anti-vaxxer nor against women choosing what happens with their bodies that on the face of it seems both an extreme case of stereotyping aswell as extremely unlikely imo.
Most anti vaxxers especially American ones are pro life. The movements are heavily intertwined, not stereotyping just observations. If there was a Venn diagram the overlap between these would very high.
There is and for a long time has been a strong pro life demographic in the States which is why it ALWAYS comes up in election campaigning.
There simply isn't the numbers in Europe that feel strongly about it probably because for the most part this issue has been pretty much settled by West European democracies for some time. Even if I accept it may be true in the states, I strongly doubt that result would be repeated across Europe or tbh other places across the world.
It stands to reason if there's a large pro life element in the states, any sub group of people (apart from women's rights groups ) is going to have a large pro life element in it's group make up, ergo think it's likely a reflection of American attitudes generally, rather than any significant correlation, you could potentially find the same kind of numbers of pro lfe supporters amongst a demographic of people who are vegatarians for example.
Another thing to note is, the mention of pro lifers was meant in a negative way or at the least that they were hypocritical.
Now make the same statement but instead of anti vaxxers make it people of colour, or gays or transgenders or disabled people or Moslems and it becomes socially unacceptable to make a claim like that.
As you know I'm far from wo_ke, but this kind of negative association and by implication framing of any group of people is a dangerous and unfair road to go down.
Is it fair to say that Moslem men grooming gangs targeting young and even underage caucasian girls takes place in the UK? Yes because we know beyond doubt it is true.
Is it fair to say so many Moslem men are in grooming gangs targeting young and even underage caucasian girls? No.
I understand if you or anybody else thinks I'm picking flies or overreacting but I'm seeing a group of people (human beings all with the same rights and freedom as others who've committed no crime) who have made a choice that is theirs to make, becase of that choice be referred to as stupid, selfish, uncaring, anti-vaxxers, pro lifers (anti women's right to choose) right wingers, tin foil hatters, conspiracy theorists and plenty of other unpleasant things.
At the same time suggested actions against them include confinement, financial punishment, forced medical procedures against their free will, segregation, banned from venues including shops or partaking generally in society or at the least as very much second class citizens.
When language is used to dehumanise a target group, unlawful and horrific acts against them become psychologically easier to condone and even demand, I know this because it's happened before, numerous times and every time the target group largely have done and said very little against their accusers whilst their accusers villify them, commit atrocities against them and call them THE BAD GUYS.
And it all started with the language.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 28, 2021 18:23:48 GMT
On the positive side, unlike those polls from Germany & Austria, 100% of people stating an opinion on here, are my body my choice, totally against mandatory vaccinations.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2021 18:55:29 GMT
Without quoting you Bubba.
Bluenose68 added a good Twitter link based on algorithms picking up keywords which demonstrates that right leaning individuals.
My point was a very simple one, if people believe it’s an individuals right to choose to have a vaccine then they have no right over anyone else’s choice to terminate a pregnancy. The groups are heavily intertwined in the USA.
If someone chooses to not be vaccinated I’m fine with that, if someone actively discourages people to have a vaccine especially by force or intimidation then they are not respecting other people’s choices. The latter I would describe as an anti vaxxer.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 28, 2021 19:01:12 GMT
You think people are being forced and intimidated NOT to have a jab ?
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Post by bubba on Nov 28, 2021 19:18:12 GMT
Without quoting you Bubba. Bluenose68 added a good Twitter link based on algorithms picking up keywords which demonstrates that right leaning individuals. My point was a very simple one, if people believe it’s an individuals right to choose to have a vaccine then they have no right over anyone else’s choice to terminate a pregnancy. The groups are heavily intertwined in the USA. If someone chooses to not be vaccinated I’m fine with that, if someone actively discourages people to have a vaccine especially by force or intimidation then they are not respecting other people’s choices. The latter I would describe as an anti vaxxer. I can never see twitter links on here, must be somethng to do with my browser privacy settings, but think your first sentence must be unfinished.
I agree with the point you make above and what should be unsurprising I'm a long time advocate of a women's right to choose, her body her choice, I get the other side of the argument but for me it's a simple equation.
Your last paragraph I would describe as an abuser or criminal and tbh I haven't heard/read of anybody doing that though sure there must be a few. Anti vaxxer for me is someone against vaccines full stop. I know there are such people, but both my experience and reason tells me that term actally applies to a small minority of those choosing not to take these covid vaaccines.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2021 19:44:19 GMT
Link here
twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1464869806650314755?s=20
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Post by bubba on Nov 28, 2021 20:44:53 GMT
Ta.
1. It's only about wearing masks
2. Whilst I'm not saying his results are wrong, these kind of things should be done, imo, without the author's own very clear and obvious bias being exhibited throughout, it kind of diminishes his credibility imho.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2021 20:54:26 GMT
Ta.
1. It's only about wearing masks
2. Whilst I'm not saying his results are wrong, these kind of things should be done, imo, without the author's own very clear and obvious bias being exhibited throughout, it kind of diminishes his credibility imho.
The results are unsurprising.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2021 20:56:26 GMT
Ta.
1. It's only about wearing masks
2. Whilst I'm not saying his results are wrong, these kind of things should be done, imo, without the author's own very clear and obvious bias being exhibited throughout, it kind of diminishes his credibility imho.
The results are unsurprising and agreed with his final point re the lack of interaction between the two (which hopefully we are doing here)
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Post by bubba on Nov 28, 2021 20:59:20 GMT
Yes I did note that and thought the same
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2021 21:25:24 GMT
Tony there are people who make it their personal mission to intimidate people not to take vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine but all vaccines. They’ve turned up outside schools, sent threatening letters to GP surgeries and spread quite frankly bullshite information on social media that is so far from science it’s laughable.
Some of the misinformation, it comes from a place of people fearing something that you don’t understand and sharing this content is a way of understanding and having some form and of power. There’s a lot of grooming that goes on online with the Covid denial and anti vaxx movement, my nephew (Mrs side) is full on down that rabbit hole.
What’s the scary thing is most full on anti vaxx is monetised. They pretend to care but ask for money for subscriptions or buying products with no medical benefit
Bubba I think bluenose68 has filled in the gaps of my incomplete sentence.
As for the rest, I agree there’s a difference between personal choice and influencing others through nefarious means. The crossover between the anti vaxx pro life movements is massive in America and I find it hypocritical of them on one hand advocating personal choice when it comes to vaccines but denying it to women who want/ need abortions.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 28, 2021 21:54:02 GMT
Tony 1. there are people who make it their personal mission to intimidate people not to take vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine but all vaccines. They’ve turned up outside schools, sent threatening letters to GP surgeries and spread quite frankly bullshite information on social media that is so far from science it’s laughable. 2. Some of the misinformation, it comes from a place of people fearing something that you don’t understand and sharing this content is a way of understanding and having some form and of power. There’s a lot of grooming that goes on online with the Covid denial and anti vaxx movement, my nephew (Mrs side) is full on down that rabbit hole. 3. What’s the scary thing is most full on anti vaxx is monetised. They pretend to care but ask for money for subscriptions or buying products with no medical benefit Bubba I think bluenose68 has filled in the gaps of my incomplete sentence. 4. As for the rest, I agree there’s a difference between personal choice and influencing others through nefarious means. 5. The crossover between the anti vaxx pro life movements is massive in America and I find it hypocritical of them on one hand advocating personal choice when it comes to vaccines but denying it to women who want/ need abortions. 1. Well I can believe that. I've not come across this, but can well believe there are people like that. I wouldn't think this is endemic, and personally, not noticeable. With taking the jab however, it is very noticeable, including our sweet rulers, media and multi-national companies. People standing outside schools, intimidating people who they think haven't been jabbed ? Hmm, considering government attitude to what they call mis-information, I'm surprised they let this fly. 2. For me personally, it's a matter of trust. I don't know whether it would be better to be jabbed or not. I'd guess it varies from person to person. Regarding my reasons for the mistrust, seriously, I think I'd be in with a shout of holding a world record, for listing the same fcuking reasons on a forum. 3. Grifters. If idiots want to give them their money, let 'em, it doesn't affect you. Governments using your money to buy drugs, does. Governments fcuking up businesses, and paying furlough does. Testing perfectly healthy people will cost you. 4. So you don't approve of the government's carrot & stick approach I assume ? 5. So you're all for my body, my choice, and people shouldn't be forced to pay for politicians to pressure them into doing something to their bodies, they don't want to do ?
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Post by bubba on Nov 28, 2021 23:16:30 GMT
Tony there are people who make it their personal mission to intimidate people not to take vaccines, not just the Covid vaccine but all vaccines. They’ve turned up outside schools, sent threatening letters to GP surgeries and spread quite frankly bullshite information on social media that is so far from science it’s laughable. Some of the misinformation, it comes from a place of people fearing something that you don’t understand and sharing this content is a way of understanding and having some form and of power. There’s a lot of grooming that goes on online with the Covid denial and anti vaxx movement, my nephew (Mrs side) is full on down that rabbit hole. What’s the scary thing is most full on anti vaxx is monetised. They pretend to care but ask for money for subscriptions or buying products with no medical benefit Bubba I think bluenose68 has filled in the gaps of my incomplete sentence. As for the rest, I agree there’s a difference between personal choice and influencing others through nefarious means. The crossover between the anti vaxx pro life movements is massive in America and I find it hypocritical of them on one hand advocating personal choice when it comes to vaccines but denying it to women who want/ need abortions.
Genuinely complete unaware about the anti vaxxers and schools, GP's etc and frankly whilst I think in terms of it being equally appalling behaviour as abusing or demanding vaccination for the vaccinated , I can at least understand some of their concerns. The above that you describe is jut weird, what difference does it make to them? I would also yet again empasise not all covid unvaccinated are anti vaxxers, in fact I'd say a great many are not.
Yes it's hypocritical of anti vaxxers or anyone else if advocating personal choice on one hand and denyng it to women on the other. Though I would also extend that to anybody, anybody at all who argues for equal rights for women, LGBTQ+ (fcuk me I wrote that off the top of my head, you don't know what you know sometimes) ethnic minorities or whoever is absolutely bloody hypocritical if they then say or even think it should be other people's choice whether someone gets vaccinated or not. You can't pick and choose which demographic is worthy of equal rights, by defintion equal means for everybody, the difference between wo_ke virtue signalling and a genuine state of mind of believing in equality for all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 14:29:09 GMT
I dont think anyone if criticising peoples rights not to have a vaccination. Im pretty sure all the posts are in broad agreement that that is peoples own prerogative and shouldnt be penalised.
Likewise anti-vaxxers pushing their agenda onto the wider population is very different to people choosing to not have a vaccination
It becomes a slighty trickier area if you are going to "incentivise" being vaxed as that treads a line towards discriminating....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 16:17:11 GMT
There's a video appeared on Social Media today of a couple being refused service in Lidl because they wouldn't give their Vax status.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 29, 2021 16:54:41 GMT
There's a video appeared on Social Media today of a couple being refused service in Lidl because they wouldn't give their Vax status. I don't think that's legal. Yet. There's the trouble, all avenues are on the same page, they all want us jabbed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 17:16:58 GMT
There's a video appeared on Social Media today of a couple being refused service in Lidl because they wouldn't give their Vax status. I don't think that's legal. Yet. There's the trouble, all avenues are on the same page, they all want us jabbed. The bloke was saying," You're breaking the law" but,they wouldn't serve them.
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Post by tonyhancock on Nov 29, 2021 17:35:38 GMT
I don't think that's legal. Yet. There's the trouble, all avenues are on the same page, they all want us jabbed. The bloke was saying," You're breaking the law" but,they wouldn't serve them. If he has the time,he should sue. I believe others have successfully done so. For me it's gone past the jab, in and of itself, now. It is looking increasingly likely, the jab will be mandated. If this is the case, it should sweep away any illusions, any of us have, that we live in a free country. It will prove beyond all doubt, the government owns us, bodily. The nation has another chance. Please don't wear the masks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 18:40:56 GMT
If you don’t agree with injections fine that’s your perogative. What I don’t understand is the preaching about not wearing masks either
Feels counter intuitive.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 18:46:07 GMT
Also the bit I don’t understand is why all of a sudden this is why the tin foil hat brigade are getting all worked up about
I assume you also had a big problem with the government peroguing Parliament ? Cos that really would be a government taking the p*ss?
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