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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 8:28:44 GMT
Well millions of Turks must have flooded into the UK And every single one of them has opened a barber shop. There’s more Turkish barbershops in Sutton than there are Indian Restaurants. A lot of the Turks seem to be Kurds... I don’t mind... Brum could do with more shops selling Feta and olives! just to say though, that Turkey is not in the EU and is unlikely to ever be so because it won’t meet entry criteria... and if U.K. was in EU we could veto entry anyway... their immigration is less to do with EU than the West’s intervention in Iraq andPutin and Assad’s destruction of Syria... but that’s another topic regarding immigration in general, the system is broken (or damaged), as BlueanBlack saysand that is more to do with the incompetence of Tory Politicians, who have been running the Home Office for a decade. What the Government did not also tell you is that The EU allowed restrictions on settlement that the U.K. but chose not to implement because we needed more workers to boost the economy... the EU has been a scapegoat for the failings of our national politicians... this is the last post I’m putting on here... got work to do... I will let go Bubbas assertion that British People can’t vote out the European Parliament... of course they can’t... but people in Europe as a whole can... the EU Parliament is a different type of institution..as the Eu has a written constitution with checks and balances... National Parties control their Party lists... and they ally with like minded groups from around Europe... so every vote does have influence... you can write to your MEP to lobby etc...debates are recorded and publicly available... it’s not perfect, nothing is... perhaps it’s not the way we like it... but it is a system... and the tangible benefits we gain in economic activity, freedom of movement, and political and legal protections are far more important than an obtuse system that seeks to balance and check other parts... at the moment, if you want to sell widgets into SpIn , you can go to the EU and influence regulations and quality.. out of the EU you will be at best not able to have a say in rules, at at worst be excluded because you don’t meet criteria or have to pay high tariffs... ithe European Single Market was Margaret Thatchers greatest legacy and i am amazed that the Right Wing Tories don’t celebrate that... of course we can spend years and shitloads of money negotiating to get back what we already have, and maybe it one or two instances, Britain can achieve a “victory” by increasing the permitted fat content of Pork Pies or something... but an ‘independent’ U.K. will just be swopping a senior partnership with the EU for junior vassalship with Trumps USA... That’s all folks. thats it really, unless someone says something particularly idiotic... sorry for being arrogant by expressing realities... Well said Billy - nice to see some argument based on fact rather than prejudice on here.
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Post by monkeyman on Sept 7, 2019 9:33:08 GMT
Nope, this kind of shit is never ok, and only ever ends the same way. This thread will be exactly the same Told ya. May as well have closed the thread after my post.
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Post by expatjohn on Sept 7, 2019 9:41:24 GMT
It does allow those that want to release some of their tensions. I was doubtful, but it's actually been better than I expected.
I'll lock it and send it to the saved forum later.
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Sept 7, 2019 9:54:39 GMT
Freedom of speech
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Post by billybeer on Sept 7, 2019 9:59:00 GMT
Nope, this kind of shit is never ok, and only ever ends the same way. This thread will be exactly the same Told ya. May as well have closed the thread after my post. Nice to see that it has concluded with post as Will says containing facts and rational thinking! ... is that what you mean ?! still at least i have now shown Quark that the EU does have accounts and demonstrated to Bubba that HIS SINGLE REASON for wanting Brexit does not make sense, I am assured that there are now two more people who can willingly support Remain. KRO
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Post by quark on Sept 7, 2019 11:04:18 GMT
Told ya. May as well have closed the thread after my post. Nice to see that it has concluded with post as Will says containing facts and rational thinking! ... is that what you mean ?! still at least i have now shown Quark that the EU does have accounts and demonstrated to Bubba that HIS SINGLE REASON for wanting Brexit does not make sense, I am assured that there are now two more people who can willingly support Remain. KRO You mean the Quark who told you he voted remain. I lost, democracy won, move on and leave
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Post by billybeer on Sept 7, 2019 11:27:11 GMT
Nice to see that it has concluded with post as Will says containing facts and rational thinking! ... is that what you mean ?! still at least i have now shown Quark that the EU does have accounts and demonstrated to Bubba that HIS SINGLE REASON for wanting Brexit does not make sense, I am assured that there are now two more people who can willingly support Remain. KRO You mean the Quark who told you he voted remain. I lost, democracy won, move on and leave Deomcracy is a process not an opinion poll... when Brexiters can name a destination that is realistic and attainable and not just a fno rulestrade tax avoidance Shang right la, then saying Leave might make sense... but they can’t even do that... www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-brexit-undertones-of-the-eus-impending-anti-tax-avoidance-legislation/21/06/
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Sept 7, 2019 11:51:35 GMT
Who the feck started this fecking thread ffs it's boring the feckin spots off my arse!
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Post by quark on Sept 7, 2019 11:51:49 GMT
[ Thats exactly what it is, an opinion poll or a popularity contest at every election. You only get one choice
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Post by bluenoserob on Sept 7, 2019 13:18:13 GMT
How can a remainer state that this is all about democracy? Democracy ended in this country after the largest vote in our history voted to leave the EU. The fact is Remainer MPs whose constituents voted to leave have decided their opinion is the only one that counts, and their constituents have got it wrong. Where is the democracy in that? If Communist Corbyn won the next election with only a majority of only 100 votes, do you honestly think he would go back to the country for another election? Of course he wouldn’t. I despair of our MPs, what a bunch they are. The only way to sort this out is to have a General Election where all the standing Tory candidates are Brexiteers. And all the standing labour MPs are remainers It would then be a straight forward vote. Maybe they could then start to get on with governing our country again.
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Post by leather on Sept 7, 2019 15:18:16 GMT
Drain the fcuking swamp
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 18:09:45 GMT
I might add the 350m has already been delivered and we ain’t left yet. It may well have been an over exaggeration but hey project fear contained countless lies and the weak pound is the only victory. Even the IMF and Bank of England climbed down hugely on their doom. The only thing that’s the country right now is the no end in sight scenario has pushed the country into this catatonic state and it’s being held their by parliament who are blocking it. Boris May be pulling some tricks but it’s on both sides. Bercow is an evil remain supporter and he has allowed parliament to seize control twice when he is supposed to be impartial!! It isn’t helped by people like Gina miller sticking her oar in. Totally not shocked the legal action has not succeeded today. Makes me laugh that major was supporting it, more hypocritical shit considering he prorogued parliament himself. Has the £350m been delivered though? Where? fullfact.org/health/nhs-england-394-million-more/
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 18:59:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2019 19:18:40 GMT
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Post by bubba on Sept 7, 2019 20:14:13 GMT
still at least i have now shown Quark that the EU does have accounts and demonstrated to Bubba that HIS SINGLE REASON for wanting Brexit does not make sense, I am assured that there are now two more people who can willingly support Remain. KRO Only in your wildest dreams, you can never defeat this simple and all important argument
Can the British people vote out a British government that it doesn't agree with come election time? Answer yes
Can the British people vote out a European government that it doesn't agree with come election time? Answer no
Your pitiful response waffles on but the crux of the matter is the above remains an immutable fact, you can't deny it, you can't challenge it, you can't gloss over it. It is the entire argument for sovreignty wrapped up concisely that EVERYBODY can understand.
If we lose the ability as a nation to vote out in our own right those who would govern us then they are not accountabe to us and we are slaves, vote for your trinkets and some presumed (and entirely speculative) glorious future for your children, you'll have sold them into bondage, and you'll have been bought cheap.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 6:57:59 GMT
Thanks buddy. Interesting read Especially this bit “However, other costs (for example, parts of the Brexit ‘divorce’ bill) and economic effects associated with leaving are expected to more than offset that saving. Any extra funding given to the NHS or any other part of public spending would then need to come from increased taxes, increased borrowing, or reducing spending on something else..”
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Post by bubba on Sept 8, 2019 9:22:53 GMT
Once you give up your right to choose your own leaders, everything else is meaningless.
In your home you/you and your partner make all the decisions for your household.
Imagine your street decides to become a collective and explains how through your collective power you can get some things cheaper and doing business with other streets on better terms. There are 28 houses in the street and you all get a vote. A few things if one house is really against something they can veto it, but the intention and infrstructure provides for this to be phased out moving to a virtually entirely majority vote.
It all sounds great, until you suddenly realise that rules and laws are getting passed that you don't agree with and that you can't stop. You can't vote out other houses and all you ever get is your one vote in 28. Your 3 children could in theory vote you out of the decision making for your household and elect themselves, but they stil only get your one house vote in the collective.
You're all trapped and God forbid you ever try to act free and leave the collective because it will be made as diffcult as possible to do so. Not only that the other households will target members of your own household either frightening them into compliance or buying them off until you can't even get your own household to agree to be free.
If you can't vote out those that govern you then you have lost ALL control. Whatever the collective decides you are bound by law to accept and your one vote is meaningless against the collective. They could decide brown hair is illegal, that your children must do automatic conscription at 18 to the new EU Army, in fact anything and there will be nothing you can do about it all because you voted to be a slave without choice, without freedom, without the right to decide who governs. When you give up that right, you give up everything, it's only a matter of time until those you give your power over to come to collect.
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Post by bubba on Sept 8, 2019 9:41:34 GMT
If anybody comes back with any waffle trying to deflect from the above (because it can't be denied only attempts at misdirection) saying what you can get remember this.
Any government can give/promise you anything
Any government can take back in the future what they give now (including free movement for example)
The difference is if your national government does that, you can vote them out come election time.
With an EU government British citizens can't do that, any and all laws could be enacted that favour other EU countries and punish Britain and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
The EU - The ultimate we'll do what we want, and they actually can.
No truly great institution would punish members for wanting to leave and make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.
The People's Vote campaign are now orchestrating the largest tactical voting plan for the next general election in order to get as many remainers (we're not buying the vote camouflage) into Parliament as possible. The People's vote gets much of it's funding from Europe which is essentially foreign powers interfering with the election processes of a sovereign nation, an act of war. There is a wall of money being thrown at overtrning the democratic vote to leave, you have to wonder if their empire is such a great thing, why the need to bully and buy us into agreeing not to leave them.
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Post by monkeyman on Sept 8, 2019 9:43:49 GMT
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Post by bubba on Sept 8, 2019 10:30:33 GMT
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." People in the short span of their lifetimes forget our collective histories.
It has been the customary condition of man to be enslaved and it has taken great sacrifices across time and nations for him to wrench back freedom from those that would enslave him, and we stand on the precipice of CHOOSING to throw that all away.
There are great principles held to be sacrosanct of the human condition, one of which is freedom and the right to self-determination, none of which are transient financial considerations, business considerations, military considerations, travel considerations, employment considerations. All these are subservient trinket considerations to the higher principles of life and without those higher principles are meaningless trophies of vanity, man does not live by bread alone.
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Post by billybeer on Sept 8, 2019 10:41:42 GMT
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Post by bubba on Sept 8, 2019 11:44:48 GMT
Whilst the remainers immediately went on the offensive against the leave voters personal shortcomings, like obviously being thicK racists that were fooled, I have prior personal experience of Billy when it comes to political debate, when you lose the argument, you try to make it personal to distract from losing the argument.
You may not be able to pigeon hole me, but your modus operandi hasn't changed in years, when your argument is weak you attack the opposition personally AND YOU ALWAYS HAVE DONE ON THESE FORUMS.
It's an age old political trick but to the discerning eye an obvious ploy of a desperate losing argument.
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Sept 8, 2019 11:47:54 GMT
Cant we veto rules though?
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Sept 8, 2019 11:49:41 GMT
If anybody comes back with any waffle trying to deflect from the above (because it can't be denied only attempts at misdirection) saying what you can get remember this.
Any government can give/promise you anything
Any government can take back in the future what they give now (including free movement for example)
The difference is if your national government does that, you can vote them out come election time.
With an EU government British citizens can't do that, any and all laws could be enacted that favour other EU countries and punish Britain and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
The EU - The ultimate we'll do what we want, and they actually can.
No truly great institution would punish members for wanting to leave and make it as difficult as possible for them to do so.
The People's Vote campaign are now orchestrating the largest tactical voting plan for the next general election in order to get as many remainers (we're not buying the vote camouflage) into Parliament as possible. The People's vote gets much of it's funding from Europe which is essentially foreign powers interfering with the election processes of a sovereign nation, an act of war. There is a wall of money being thrown at overtrning the democratic vote to leave, you have to wonder if their empire is such a great thing, why the need to bully and buy us into agreeing not to leave them.
Very similar to this board and the mods then really😉
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Post by monkeyman on Sept 8, 2019 11:53:21 GMT
Whilst the remainers immediately went on the offensive against the leave voters personal shortcomings, like obviously being thicK racists that were fooled, I have prior personal experience of Billy when it comes to political debate, when you lose the argument, you try to make it personal to distract from losing the argument.
You may not be able to pigeon hole me, but your modus operandi hasn't changed in years, when your argument is weak you attack the opposition personally AND YOU ALWAYS HAVE DONE ON THESE FORUMS.
It's an age old political trick but to the discerning eye an obvious ploy of a desperate losing argument.
Spot on. Attack the opposition personally, and claim they don't understand the issue. Clear signs of losing the argument, and clear signs of a frankly outrageous superiority complex. Also, the absolute state of the article he has linked! Hilarious
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Post by bubba on Sept 8, 2019 11:58:13 GMT
BTW for those of you even too exhausted to follow Billy's link, let me just hare with you the how it begins.
MILLIONS of Britons are physically exhausted after spending what feels like decades arguing with people who do not understand anything.
The arrogance is unbridled, these people genuinely believe they are intellectually superior to those holding a different opinion. They aint playing, this isn't some nationwide wum, these people actually believe this crap, that they and they alone are capable of understanding the subject. I hope this proves in time to be nothing more than hollow echo chambers and people aren't brow beaten into having their own mind and own opinion changed by this kind of group arrogance.
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Post by bubba on Sept 8, 2019 12:02:03 GMT
Spot on. Attack the opposition personally, and claim they don't understand the issue. Clear signs of losing the argument, and clear signs of a frankly outrageous superiority complex. Also, the absolute state of the article he has linked! HilariousBeat me to it, strange really that after losing before they think the best tactic is to carry on insulting those of a different view, long may they continue I say, a very strange tactic.
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Post by BillyNoMatesformerlyTheMadFrog on Sept 8, 2019 12:06:06 GMT
Whilst the remainers immediately went on the offensive against the leave voters personal shortcomings, like obviously being thicK racists that were fooled, I have prior personal experience of Billy when it comes to political debate, when you lose the argument, you try to make it personal to distract from losing the argument.
You may not be able to pigeon hole me, but your modus operandi hasn't changed in years, when your argument is weak you attack the opposition personally AND YOU ALWAYS HAVE DONE ON THESE FORUMS.
It's an age old political trick but to the discerning eye an obvious ploy of a desperate losing argument.
Spot on. Attack the opposition personally, and claim they don't understand the issue. Clear signs of losing the argument, and clear signs of a frankly outrageous superiority complex. Also, the absolute state of the article he has linked! Hilarious Hang on I'm getting confused are we still on about the forum or the EU?
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Post by billybeer on Sept 8, 2019 12:50:19 GMT
Whilst the remainers immediately went on the offensive against the leave voters personal shortcomings, like obviously being thicK racists that were fooled, I have prior personal experience of Billy when it comes to political debate, when you lose the argument, you try to make it personal to distract from losing the argument.
You may not be able to pigeon hole me, but your modus operandi hasn't changed in years, when your argument is weak you attack the opposition personally AND YOU ALWAYS HAVE DONE ON THESE FORUMS.
It's an age old political trick but to the discerning eye an obvious ploy of a desperate losing argument.
Spot on. Attack the opposition personally, and claim they don't understand the issue. Clear signs of losing the argument, and clear signs of a frankly outrageous superiority complex. Also, the absolute state of the article he has linked! Hilarious What a surprise... As sure as a trailer on a car, Monkeyman follows Bubba! Daily Mash article seems pretty accurate to me... it is satire meanwhile in the real world, my wife can’t change her job because no one will recruit her with an EU passport... we are all losing rights and privileges.. I don’t mind people being honest about voting Brexit... immigration, patriotism etc.. it’s not correct, but that is the guff people are sold.... but pseudo intellectual bullshit is just that... and whose got the superiority complex.. not me...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 13:23:18 GMT
BTW for those of you even too exhausted to follow Billy's link, let me just hare with you the how it begins.
MILLIONS of Britons are physically exhausted after spending what feels like decades arguing with people who do not understand anything.
The arrogance is unbridled, these people genuinely believe they are intellectually superior to those holding a different opinion. They aint playing, this isn't some nationwide wum, these people actually believe this crap, that they and they alone are capable of understanding the subject. I hope this proves in time to be nothing more than hollow echo chambers and people aren't brow beaten into having their own mind and own opinion changed by this kind of group arrogance.
But what about people like me voted out and now seriously considering changing that view as I see what is unfolding.know plenty feeling the same way,no truck with anyone who voted leave because I was one of them ,not saying people who want no deal are thick racist whatever just don’t want no deal.in business at senior level so don’t need anyone giving me a lesson on this I know what I see and the implications.if this view applies to a significant number of leavers what is fair and reasonable?
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